Advocacy, Education, and Empathy in Estate and Asset Protection With Shannon Pawley

December 25, 2024 | Written by Gladiator Law Marketing

Shannon Pawley, JD, LLM, is the Managing Partner and CEO of The Estate & Asset Protection Law Firm. The firm was established to serve the legal needs of senior citizens when their health care needs increase, focusing its entire practice on elder law and estate planning matters, encompassing areas including Medicaid, VA benefits, and special needs. With a background of two decades in leadership in the legal field and a Master of Laws in Taxation degree, she co-authored Becoming the CEO of Your Parent’s Life. Deeply committed to helping her clients age with dignity, grace, and independence, Shannon works tirelessly to prepare them and their families for the complexities of aging. She is also passionate about mentoring future legal professionals and empowering clients through education and strategic planning.

Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn:

[01:55] What inspired Shannon Pawley to pursue a legal career
[04:28] Shannon’s journey from young associate to law firm CEO
[10:51] Shannon talks about her firm’s unique vision, which focuses on preserving the client’s voice
[13:56] Why mentorship is vital in personal and professional growth
[16:52] Common estate planning myths and misconceptions revealed
[18:13] Why estate planning should start at age 18
[20:19] Key components of a well-crafted estate plan
[23:36] Staying updated with estate planning trends and law firm innovation

In this episode…

Many individuals don’t realize the importance of proactive planning until it’s too late. What steps can be taken to ensure that you and your loved ones are protected, no matter the circumstances?

According to Shannon Pawley, a seasoned expert in estate planning and asset protection, the key to safeguarding your future begins with early planning and choosing the right advocates. She highlights the critical importance of understanding how estate planning starts as early as age 18, with essential documents like power of attorney, which gives a designated agent the ability to make decisions for the grantor. Shannon emphasizes that proper planning can not only safeguard assets but also give individuals and their families peace of mind, independence, and dignity during some of life’s most difficult moments.

In this episode of 15 Minutes, host Chad Franzen sits down with Shannon Pawley, Managing Partner and CEO of The Estate & Asset Protection Law Firm, to discuss how advocacy, education, and empathy intersect in estate planning. Shannon shares the importance of starting estate planning early, the power of collaboration over conflict, and the significance of mentorship in shaping a meaningful career. She also talks about preserving clients’ voices and values through thoughtful planning.

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Quotable Moments

“I wanted to give voice to those that are silenced, either silenced by society or by their circumstances.”
“Through one person’s effort, you can have a significant ripple effect of positivity.”
“The biggest misconception is that I don’t need estate planning until after I retire.”
“Everybody should have a mentor, and everybody should have mentees.”
“I am not in a profession; I’m in a passion.”

Action Steps

Embrace mentor and mentee relationships: Engaging in mentorship as both a mentor and a mentee can significantly enhance personal and professional growth.
Start estate planning early: Initiating the estate planning journey at age 18 ensures that individuals have essential documents like a power of attorney in place, preventing situations where they might have nobody designated to make crucial decisions when the grantor is unable.
Utilize collaborative advocacy: This method leverages the opportunity for shared understanding and education, breaking down communication barriers and fostering positive outcomes.
Engage in continuous education and networking: Participating in professional groups and summits keeps legal practitioners informed about the evolving landscape of estate planning and asset protection.
Develop multidisciplinary collaboration: Encourage collaboration with financial, insurance, and tax advisors during planning meetings to create comprehensive and well-rounded strategies.

Sponsor for this episode…

This episode is brought to you by Gladiator Law Marketing, where we deliver tailor-made services to help you accomplish your objectives and maximize your growth potential.

To have a successful marketing campaign and make sure you’re getting the best ROI, your firm needs to have a better website and better content. At Gladiator Law Marketing, we use artificial intelligence, machine learning, and decades of experience to outperform the competition.

To learn more, go to gladiatorlawmarketing.com or schedule a free marketing consultation. You can also send an email to ad**@gl*******************.com .

Episode Transcript

Intro 00:01

You’re listening to 15 Minutes, where we feature community leaders sharing what the rest of us should know, but likely don’t.

Chad Franzen 00:07

Hi, Chad Franzen here, one of the hosts of Share Your Voice, where we talk with top notch law firms and lawyers about what it takes to grow a successful law practice. This episode is brought to you by Gladiator Law Marketing, delivering tailor made services to help you accomplish your objectives and maximize your growth potential. To have a successful marketing campaign and make sure you’re getting the best ROI, your firm needs to have a better website and better content. Gladiator Law Marketing uses artificial intelligence, machine learning, and decades of experience to outperform the competition. To learn more, go to gladiatorlawmarketing.com where you can schedule a free marketing consultation. My guest today is Shannon Pawley, CEO and attorney at The Estate & Asset Protection Law Firm. Shannon, born and raised in Virginia’s Tidewater area, developed a strong work ethic and social awareness from her military family background. She served as a US House of Representatives page during high school, sparking her interest in legal studies and helping others navigate challenging situations. After earning her law degree from Michigan State University and an LLM in taxation from Wayne State University, Shannon gained experience representing diverse clients from international corporations to single parents. Recognizing her talent as a mentor, she transitioned to focusing on operational aspects of legal practice. Before joining the firm, she served as vice president of litigation operations at a national law firm overseeing offices nationwide. Outside of work, she enjoys historical reenacting, particularly the Elizabethan period, along with costuming, travel, and all things Disney. Shannon, thanks so much for joining me today. How are you?

Shannon Pawley 01:45

I’m wonderful, and thank you for having me today.

Chad Franzen 01:48

Hey, tell me I alluded to a little bit, but tell me how and when you decided you wanted to become an attorney.

Shannon Pawley 01:55

So I would definitely say it wasn’t high school. It started with where I was volunteering at nursing homes, convalescent centers. And I’m seeing the difference between what I’ll call the haves and the have nots, those that have the family support have the advocates have the documents. And I saw how fluid everything went. And then I saw those in the crisis situation that had no advocate, had no voice preserved through the documents and silenced by their mind or body. And it definitely had a lasting handprint on my heart that was only further emphasized as a congressional page. I started to see how you can, through one person’s effort, have a significant ripple effect of positivity because you don’t realize that when you touch one, you’re touching everyone that one knows and interacts with. And that was a very big learning step for me to becoming an advocate.

Chad Franzen 02:51

Sure. So yeah. You served as a US House of Representative page. What did you learn from that, and how did that kind of point you in the direction of becoming an attorney?

Shannon Pawley 03:02

Well, there’s a lot of different things that it taught me. Number one is definitely work ethic. As a congressional page. We went to high school. I spent my junior year going to high school in the Library of Commerce or, excuse me, a Library of Congress between. I think it was always between like five and eight each day. We were taught by renowned professors. As a matter of fact, we were on the same floor as the poet laureate, and it was not odd for us to be walking the halls and see Maya Angelou. So one of the things I will say is that it taught me not only the work ethic, but also the appreciation of persons as individuals and not as well like social icon images, shall I say. I met Lech Walesa. We met numerous prominent politicians at the time, such as Ted Kennedy and etc. and seeing them in a personal portrayal instead of what I’ll call it, a media portrayal. It definitely showed me that a person’s voice that’s portrayed, for example, in the media, that’s not their voice, that’s not who they are. And you have to take the time to get to know the person instead of basically answering your own questions that you had for them based upon your own preconceived thoughts, notions, or prejudices.

Chad Franzen 04:21

So how did you kind of then, you know, that was during high school. How did you kind of work your way into the legal industry?

Shannon Pawley 04:28

So focused definitely on education. I did take a gap year between college and a law school. I will say that the gap year was very eye opening because it was a gap year focused more on trying to build up funds and education, and I definitely learned a lot there, only in regards to the importance of having a foundation of understanding and a foundation of, unfortunately, education to get in that first door of respect before they hear your voice. Because so often people have these preconceived notions, and in a job world, that preconceived notion is looking at your resume. So what did you do? Definitely emphasized the need to go to college. Excuse me? Post college with law school. And once when I was in law school, that’s when I realized my love of planning and advocacy. I did a tax concentration in law school. I got my Masters of Law in tax. Originally my focus was going to be tax planning. But what I started to realize is I wanted to give voice to those that are silenced, either silenced by society, which unfortunately In the American culture, our seniors are silenced. Unfortunately, as a conglomerated group. In addition, it emphasized to me the need for advocacy, but advocacy, not where you have a winner and a loser, but advocacy more in that collaborative environment. Because through collaboration, there’s no reason that only one person can win. We can all win. And sometimes that winning is as low of a threshold as just the education that a person suddenly gets to change their thoughts, which now they proclaim a different voice.

Chad Franzen 06:26

So now you are the CEO and an attorney at The Estate & Asset Protection Law Firm. How did you come about? How did you join that firm and everything?

Shannon Pawley 06:37

So what I’ll say is I am a stereotypical Gen Xer. I went to law school and I got out of law school and I got the job I wanted. I was working at a small boutique tax and estate planning firm in metro Detroit, and I was enjoying it. But what I will say as a young associate, you are the grunt. You are not the one that is the toast of the party, for lack of a better way to put it. So I know that I was striving to actually have a presence with the clients beyond that. And then I ended up getting an opportunity that I couldn’t turn down that was working for the national law firm, which ultimately led me to down the path of becoming a vice president of litigation operations. It was a wonderful opportunity. It was in the field of creditor rights, which may sound like a complete oddball thing, as I talked to people about asset preservation because I was on the dark side of the force, shall we say. I was representing blue chip companies for the top five credit card lenders, student loan organizations. But what I emphasize is through that understanding of how creditors work, I have a better understanding of how to best protect my clients. I often give the example of if you’re going in for an IRS audit, do you want a former IRS agent, or do you want someone that’s only studied theory? Now why I got out of that? What I will say is, towards the latter part of my career, I started to realize that I didn’t like the practice of law anymore. I was not an advocate with a shield protecting. I was an advocate with a sword rushing out to the front, and I did not like that. So I grew not to like the practice of law or myself. And I had my own personal epiphany that while the opportunities were great in a national law firm, while the money was phenomenal, I did the complete opposite of what a gen-xer did, and I decided I needed to chase that which made me feel fulfilled. And that’s where I ended up having the opportunity to work with my former law partner, Victoria Collier, and ultimately. Went from working with her to us becoming partners to ultimately her retiring from the practice of law and me taking over the firm. And I couldn’t be happier. And yes, I had that little, if you want to call it, a side venture with the national law firm. But everything happens for a purpose, and I think that’s what makes me a stronger advocate, because I actually understand the enemy.

Chad Franzen 09:10

So. Sure, sure. So what do you find most rewarding then, about helping clients with estate planning and asset protection?

Shannon Pawley 09:17

I greatly enjoy being able to assist people who are trying to get long term care needs in the skilled nursing environment. Skilled nursing is expensive in metro Atlanta. For a facility, you’re looking at between 5000 to $16,000 a month that is going to fully deplete the average middle class Americans nest egg, usually within about 2 to 3 years. and the ability with these people where they feel like everything is out of their control, and now they feel as though they’re losing their assets, they’re losing their dignity, they’re losing their independence, they’re losing their grace and being able to work beside them and their families to give them comfort when their whole world is falling apart around them. For them to feel that independence through a written document and preserve their independent thoughts and wishes, when unfortunately, they know the prognosis of the future, and then ultimately for the family members being able to get their loved one into a facility under the governmental program, for example, of Medicaid. It’s just an astounding, heartfelt gratitude that we get back that just reinforces I am where I need to be. I’m not in a profession. I’m in a passion.

Chad Franzen 10:39

Your firm has a pretty well defined vision. It’s actually a quote. Could you kind of tell me what that means and how that shapes the firm’s approach to to doing what it does?

Shannon Pawley 10:51

So we are focused on the individual that is the client. And as we’re focusing on them, our focus is always the preservation of their voice. I find it kind of ironic, the name of your podcast, because I’m always talking to people about preserving the dignity and grace and the voice of individuals, and that’s our passion here. We’re focused on securing that. And everyone in my firm, we have a story that has brought us all together, because I think that’s one of the things that’s most beautiful. I myself, not only did they have that experience volunteering in nursing homes and junior, excuse me, in high school and college, but I myself, I am genetically predisposed for vascular dementia. My grandmother had it. My mother was the caregiver for my grandmother. And then my aunt got it. My mother was part of the care team. And then about nine years ago, my mother was diagnosed with it. And I just remember her feeling these kaleidoscopes of emotions, not only knowing what was coming for her because she saw that in her mother, or excuse me, in her grandmother, in her sister, but also knowing what was going to happen to us as caregivers. And she my mother, even to this day, though, she is on hospice, nonverbal, somewhat low quality of life, she still teaches me every day when I interact with her because she is my role model and she is the model of what I want all of my clients to experience that comfort through planning when you feel chaos, and then that preservation for the caregivers to understand how to best care for your loved one when they can no longer vocalize it themselves.

Chad Franzen 12:37

You are. You’re both CEO and attorney at your firm. How do you kind of balance those two roles?

Shannon Pawley 12:44

So what I’ll emphasize is I the CEO of course, I’m working on the firm, which is very, very important because if we’re in the firm, we can’t work on the firm because we are just too involved in the day to day. But in my attorney role, this is where I’m very big in the belief that everybody should have a mentor and everybody should have mentees. And my attorney role is more as a mentor coach, shall we say, to my up and coming team members, yes, I still go to court. Yes, I still draft, but it’s utilized more in the learning environment for my team members. And also, I think it’s important if I’m going to continue to advocate for others, I must understand the practical implications and implementation. And that’s why I’m proud to say that I’m still an attorney and CEO, because I still understand how to get into the trenches, and I have intimate involvement in all of the changes that may or may not occur with law, policy, or just personal stance with society, with society.

Chad Franzen 13:50

Was there something in your experience that led you to become a big believer in mentors and mentees?

Shannon Pawley 13:56

Yes, and it’s going to sound really silly here, but it definitely started with Girl Scouts. Really, through Girl Scouts, I started to realize that you can learn from others and you can also help build up others. This, of course, then led into student tutoring, which then led into being a resident advisor in college, which then led to becoming part of what we’ll call it like the the mentoring committees in law school, where you’re mentoring with like one L’s and two L’s, ultimately to the point of where I’m at today. Even in my personal social realm, I’m very big on it too. For over 20 years, I was one of the leads of the resident cast of the Michigan Renaissance Festival. And through that, mentoring people not only on historical understanding, costume making, and etc., but also improv, which I think that’s one of the things that helps me out so much as an advocate and active listener, is through theatrical training as improv, because you have to listen and you have to engage, and you have to appropriately react while trying to lead it down a certain course.

Chad Franzen 15:12

Yeah, I would imagine. Is there any mentor that made a particular impact on your career or your life?

Shannon Pawley 15:18

Definitely. He was actually the general counsel for the national law firm that previously worked with. He’s out of Massachusetts. His name is Robert Thuot. Before joining the firm that we were previously at. He did white collar crime and in the white collar crime. He actually was very active in representing civil rights leaders. Okay. And it was very intriguing. And that combined with his emphasis of the mentor mentee relationship, not only within mentoring me as an officer of a national law firm, but also his emphasis that you got to bring it up for the next generation. So he actually worked at Harvard in their reading, writing and analysis One-l classes because he just felt it was so important to get people to have a strong foundation. And they realized in that foundation they’re not alone, and they should look up to others instead of feeling they have to do everything alone, because you can’t do everything alone. And just starting there because I remember myself as A1LI was just like every other one. L you know, slightly egotistical coming from a school where, you know, I was top of the class and now I’m average and there’s a lot of identity crisis that happens during that time. And that was one of the big things he was emphasizing is meeting people where they are in the environment that they are.

Chad Franzen 16:43

Interesting, interesting. So, you know, you’re in you’re in estate planning. Are there any common misconceptions that you find that people often have regarding estate planning?

Shannon Pawley 16:52

Yes. So the first one that I hear quite often is the belief that a last will and testament is a ticket out of probate. That’s the first one I hear quite often. That’s one that every week I am educating either individually or in a group forum. That misconception. The second misconception a lot of people have is in regards to government benefits through Medicaid and the belief that you have to lose everything and have nothing to qualify for the governmental program without realizing that at least here in Georgia, medicaid policy allows an opportunity to preserve assets, instead of having that preconceived notion of you’ve got to spend it all in order to receive. So definitely that spin down belief in Medicaid. And I think the last thing to that is the biggest misconception is that I don’t need it until after I retire, because estate planning is only for the twilight of your life without realizing your estate planning journey, in all honesty, should start at age 18. That’s why it’s even important for our military that they start their estate planning journey at 18. With the drafting of that last will and testament in boot camp, for example.

Chad Franzen 18:07

So what are the primary benefits of then having a kind of an estate plan, especially beginning at that age?

Shannon Pawley 18:13

Well, one of the first ones is in regards to powers of attorney. Just because I’m the mother of a 19 year old at college, That doesn’t give me the right to be actively engaged in their health care, for example. So if they get hurt, let’s say that they suddenly come down with paranoid schizophrenia. And while at school, they get taken away and put into a residential facility for treatment. Guess what? Without the right legal entitlement, the facility is not going to confirm that your 19 year old child is there. The facility is not going to tell you what’s happening with that 19 year old child, much less being able to talk to the doctors. This 19 year old child’s. The importance is not shutting others out. And it starts at 18. That’s a prime example. And the same thing with financial powers of attorney. So often as parents, I know I’m using the example of parents at this part, but I’m talking about 18 year olds as to where it starts is so often we want to be able to help our children, and part of helping our children sometimes is being able to help them with the budgeting and handling their affairs. That example, I was just giving this actually a true example of a client who’s actually 20, but a senior in college living off campus, ended up having a break and ended up going in for residential treatment for paranoid schizophrenia. But for one of the neighbors knowing where he went, the parents had no idea where he was, and the parents wanted to be able to get into the apartment to try to learn more as to what was going on, to see if there’s any clues. But of course, the landlord, rightfully so, refused them admittance because the contract was between the landlord and that 20 year old child, not the parents. So this is why I make the comment that the journey starts at 18, whether we want to acknowledge it or not, because all it takes is one of those events where you’re shut out and you realize the value of investing in basic estate planning at that young of an age.

Chad Franzen 20:14

What are some key components, then, of a well crafted estate plan?

Shannon Pawley 20:19

Well, one of the first things I would emphasize is that it’s coming down to working with the right attorney when it comes to estate planning. This is an area, I would say, if attorneys get out of law school and they’re going to hang their own shingle, they’re going to do one of three things, usually criminal appointments. Traffic courts and accidents such as that. And the third one is estate planning. The belief that I’m going to buy this program and I’m just going to basically be like a mad lib and give me a name, give me an adjective, give me a verb. Boom. I’ve got your estate plan. So that’s a big misconception, is the belief that you can go to anybody for these types of services. It’s the same thing as saying that you’re going to go to your dentist, who also went to medical school to get brain surgery. Would we ever do that? Heavens no, we wouldn’t. So you need to realize the importance of the specialty. And then the second thing that I would emphasize is you’ve got to make sure that you’ve got the right advocates and the right position. One of the things that I very often coach parents with parents to the end of their life, they always want to be fair and not show favoritism between children. But here’s the problem. If you have one daughter, CEO Cindy, who’s like the epitome of the golden child, went to Harvard, top of the class, CEO of a fortune 100 company and, you know, very astute with finances. Well, it makes sense that you would appoint her as your financial power of attorney. But if you have a loser, Larry, as your son and loser, Larry is so self-centered that he’s basically the prodigal son that hasn’t even come back yet. But you want to be fair, because Loser Larry is always stated that mom should favoritism to CEO Cindy that now you appoint him as your health care power of attorney. Don’t do that. You’ve got to have the right person, especially with the health care power of attorney, because that individual has to be able to be calm and rational in emergency situations, and that person will be a health care advocate. They have to be willing to literally stand in front of an elevator where you’re on a gurney, to prevent them from taking you down for an MRI, because you are now in the final stages of your life, and you should be getting comfort care, not sitting down and being put in agony because of spinal cancer. To try to keep you stationary for 30 minutes of excruciating pain. Once again, true story that we have there. So that’s the other thing that I do love so much about this area of law is that a lot of it’s story sharing. I’m sharing stories and people are sharing stories with me. And I think that’s the other thing that’s so beautiful, because very often after I interact with several clients and they share some of their stories, especially some of my more advanced in years clients, I always sit down and tell them, you need to just tape record your life because you have such beautiful stories that if people don’t ask the right question, they’ll never hear the story from you. And I am so honored that you just shared this story with me.

Chad Franzen 23:25

Very nice, very nice. Is that would you say that asset planning? I mean, I’m sorry. Estate planning and asset protection is evolving. And how do you kind of stay updated with latest developments?

Shannon Pawley 23:36

So it is evolving. I think that’s one of the importance not only have peer groups of similar practitioners across the United States, but also is the importance of being actively engaged in groups that are like minded attorneys that get together and have summits. For example, I’m actively involved in one group called eight figure, and we’re having a summit this weekend. And granted, it’s not specific in regards to estate planning, but the beautiful thing of it is usually these groups, others that have been involved with too. They have the master group and then they have the subgroups. They get more specific into the areas of practice. And one of the things I love so much about that is not only are we sharing information and updates as we get them, but also it’s great for someone that has a $1 million law firm in the state planning to talk to someone that has a $10 million estate planning law firm just from, once again, that mentor mentee relationship importance.

Chad Franzen 24:43

So tell me a little bit about your hobby. Historical reenacting. How did that how did that come about and how do you still do that?

Shannon Pawley 24:50

So I will have to emphasize that I have always been really big with the theater. As a matter of fact, in high school, I was actually accepted to the Virginia Governor’s Magnet School for the Arts, where I focused on theater. And so we went to the regular high school half a day, and we spent the other half of the day going to Old Dominion University in Norfolk and taking collegiate classes in theater. And that definitely started out my fascination. And then that was just, of course, followed through in college, law school. Unfortunately, that took 100% of my focus. I was one of those stereotypical kids I, I never studied in high school. I never studied in undergrad. Everything come natural. I went to law school. I was with the top 5% of most other colleges, and now all of a sudden I realized I couldn’t study. So I ended up spending three years learning how to study, basically. But when I got out of that, I wanted to get back engaged. And that’s where I ended up finding the Renaissance Festival up in Michigan. I got back into my theater roots. I got back into my ability of trying to make people have a beautiful experience and an engaging experience, as engaging as they want to be. And the other thing that was so great about that is it teaches you how to judge targets quickly. And that’s helped me even in the sales room here at the firm, because you start learning how to read people’s body language quicker. And as some of these things you never think about with theater. And I just greatly, greatly enjoyed it. Now throwing in the history geek and myself where we are historical court, that just made it even better. Let’s put the sprinkles in the cherry on top. Learning how to do costuming and being able to do historically accurate costuming. Oh my goodness, could it get any better than that? And that was so great because it allowed me to have an escape from being Shannon the attorney to more, you know, my own different, unique identity. But once again, all of all these interactions still having that same undertone of the importance of connection.

Chad Franzen 27:09

I have one more question for you. But first, tell me how people can find out more about The Estate & Asset Protection Law Firm

Shannon Pawley 27:19

Certainly. So our website is www.elderlawgeorgia Georgia spelled completely out .com. Feel free. At our website we have some basic free downloads of information, books and etc. but one of the things I’m very proud about is that every week on Thursdays at 1:00, we do a webinar and the topics change every week. For example, this week we’re focusing on hospice. Last week we were focusing on the three essentials that everybody over age 18 should have. And that’s really important because sometimes you just don’t know what you don’t know because you don’t know the topic. So let’s start with some education so you can at least be a little bit more understanding as you start to have that interaction to either start, reinforce, or restart your estate planning journey.

Chad Franzen 28:09

So I know you’re a big believer in mentorship and, you know, being in a mentees as well. What advice do you or would you give to maybe a law school graduate or somebody working their way through law school that they wouldn’t necessarily learn in law school, but could only learn through kind of your journey and your experience.

Shannon Pawley 28:32

Pick up the phone call and invite people out for lunch. That starts the communication. By doing this at lunch. You’re doing it in a neutral environment that’s completely different than saying, hey, I’d like to stop by your office and introduce myself. Well, now you’re in their domain, having it more in the neutral. You can start to interact with the individual more as the individual then their role persona in the firm. I think that’s number one. And that’s how you start to find mentors. And number three or excuse me, number two is lose the ego. You know, you don’t know anything. There’s still a lot that I don’t know. One of the things that bewilders some of my clients is I’m always talking about the importance of funding meetings for a trust and bringing your insurance advisor. Bring in your financial advisor, bring in your tax advisor. These are individuals that have their own specialty. I don’t do that intentionally because I know what I’m great at and I know what I’m good at. And trust me, you always want to work with the greats, not the goods.

Chad Franzen 29:38

Okay, awesome. Hey, thank you so much, Shannon. It’s been great to talk to you. Thank you for your insight and all of your time today. I really appreciate it.

Shannon Pawley 29:44

Thank you very much for having me. You have a great day.

Chad Franzen 29:46

You too. So long everybody.

Outro 29:47

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