Championing the Vulnerable in High-Stakes Cases With Ian Alexander

November 13, 2024 | Written by Gladiator Law Marketing

Ian Alexander is a Partner at Goldberg & Goldberg, a law firm specializing in representing victims of negligence, particularly those injured by large corporations and medical malpractice cases. With over 30 years of experience, Ian has recovered hundreds of millions of dollars for his clients, establishing himself as a leading trial lawyer in cases involving catastrophic injuries, medical malpractice, and complex personal injury litigation. Beyond his legal practice, Ian is a published author and an active member of various legal and civic organizations.

Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn:

[01:35] How Ian Alexander’s mom predicted his path into law and his unexpected start in personal injury
[08:21] Handling complex high-stakes legal cases
[10:13] How Ian learned to set aside ego, embrace collaboration, and trust others in his practice
[16:55] Outmatching formidable defense teams with skill and preparation
[18:03] Why Ian enjoys cross-examinations and closing arguments the most
[22:05] Common misconceptions about trial lawyers
[23:57] What role does compassion play in law?
[25:10] Balancing emotions as a lawyer and the personal toll of empathy in high-stakes cases
[29:18] The importance of parents advocating for their children’s care in medical settings

In this episode…

When life-altering injuries or tragedies occur, victims often face battles against powerful entities. How does one champion the rights of those who may feel voiceless against these forces? And what kind of dedication does it take to pursue justice in the most complex, high-stakes cases?

According to Ian Alexander, a seasoned trial lawyer, true advocacy requires both skill and compassion. He highlights that in complex high-stakes cases, success depends on listening attentively to clients and team members alike, ensuring no perspective is overlooked. It’s essential to balance confidence with humility, recognizing that strong cases are built on thorough preparation and empathy. His approach isn’t just about winning; it’s also about instilling trust and delivering life-changing outcomes for clients who often feel powerless against large corporations or institutions.

In this episode of 15 Minutes, Chad Franzen speaks with Ian Alexander, Partner at Goldberg & Goldberg, to discuss his journey as a champion for victims of negligence in high-stakes litigation. Ian shares his approach to balancing ego and empathy in the courtroom, insights on preparing for challenging cases, and the personal values that drive his mission. He also offers advice to new parents on advocating for themselves in healthcare settings.

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Chad Franzen on LinkedIn
Gladiator Law Marketing
Ian Alexander: LinkedIn | Phone: (312) 368-0255 | Mobile: (312) 399-8660
Goldberg & Goldberg: Website | Facebook

Special Mentions

Barry D. Goldberg

Quotable Moments

“My mom picked my career for me, and she knew that I was going to be a lawyer.”
“The guiding principle that I use in my life is I want everything that I do to help heal the world in some small way.”
“I believe that I’m better than every lawyer when I step in the room. It’s probably not true, but I have to believe it.”
“The best part about being a trial lawyer is giving a closing argument or cross-examining a defendant.”
“Share your voice. It’s crucial to advocate for yourself, not just in a hospital, but that’s a very important place.”

Action Steps

Embrace compassion and advocacy: This mindset not only enhances personal growth but also positively impacts those around you, aligning with the values of healing the world and championing justice.
Cultivate listening and collaboration skills: By actively listening and seeking diverse perspectives, you can enhance decision-making processes and create more inclusive and effective solutions.
Develop resilience and adaptability: Facing challenges head-on and adapting to new circumstances can lead to personal growth and better outcomes in both professional and personal settings.
Pursue continuous learning and skill development: Investing in your personal and professional development can open new opportunities and keep you competitive in your field.
Share your voice and advocate for yourself: Being proactive in asking questions and expressing concerns ensures your needs are met and empowers you to take control of your situation.

Sponsor for this episode…

This episode is brought to you by Gladiator Law Marketing, where we deliver tailor-made services to help you accomplish your objectives and maximize your growth potential.

To have a successful marketing campaign and make sure you’re getting the best ROI, your firm needs to have a better website and better content. At Gladiator Law Marketing, we use artificial intelligence, machine learning, and decades of experience to outperform the competition.

To learn more, go to gladiatorlawmarketing.com or schedule a free marketing consultation. You can also send an email to ad**@gl*******************.com .

Episode Transcript

Intro 00:01

You’re listening to 15 Minutes, where we feature community leaders sharing what the rest of us should know, but likely don’t.

Chad Franzen 00:12

Hi, Chad Franzen here, one of the hosts of Share Your Voice, where we talk with top notch law firms and lawyers about what it takes to grow a successful law practice. This episode is brought to you by Gladiator Law Marketing, delivering tailor made services to help you accomplish your objectives and maximize your growth potential. To have a successful marketing campaign and make sure you’re getting the best ROI, your firm needs to have a better website and better content. Gladiator Law marketing uses artificial intelligence, machine learning, and decades of experience to outperform the competition. To learn more, go to GladiatorLawMarketing.com where you can schedule a free marketing consultation. My guest today is Ian Alexander, a Partner at Goldberg & Goldberg and a trial lawyer with over 30 years of experience representing victims of negligence, particularly those injured by large corporations and hospitals. Ian’s journey into law was shaped by his upbringing in Chicago, where he learned the values of compassion, humility and the importance of advocating for others. Specializing in catastrophic injuries, medical malpractice, and complex personal injury litigation, Ian’s track record speaks for itself, with hundreds of millions of dollars recovered for his clients. Beyond his legal practice, Ian is a published author and an active member of various legal and civic organizations. Ian, thanks so much for joining me today. How are you?

Ian Alexander 01:26

I’m good. Chad, thank you so much for having me on. It’s a pleasure.

Chad Franzen 01:30

Tell me, how and when did you know that you wanted to become an attorney?

Ian Alexander 01:35

I don’t know that it was something that I even decided for myself. I was lucky enough to have a mother that was really involved in my life. And at some point early on, she looked at me and said, you’re going to be a lawyer, and I don’t know what it was about me. That sort of gave her the idea that that was something that I should pursue, but I always knew from that point on that I was going to study law. My brother was going to be a doctor and she got it right. And that’s how I picked my career. My mom picked it for me, and she I don’t think she cared what area of law I went into, but she knew that I was going to be a lawyer.

Chad Franzen 02:18

So what was it about you as a child or whenever she said that to you that made her think that? Do you think?

Ian Alexander 02:24

I like to think it’s because I’m one of those people that is logical and has reasoned arguments. But I think what really tipped it off was that she saw that I liked to argue.

Chad Franzen 02:40

Perfect, perfect. So I mentioned some of the values that you had growing up as a child. Tell me a little bit more about how your childhood and family values have shaped who you are, especially as a trial lawyer or as a lawyer.

Ian Alexander 02:53

Well, there were a couple of things early on in my life that really shaped me. One Family. The importance of family. In my family, we. You’re either family or not family. We don’t say you’re a third cousin, a fifth cousin. We have a huge, huge family and everybody is treated like they’re first cousins. And so we were constantly surrounded by family, and people did things for each other, and not because it was for their benefit. It was because of the rewards of doing for your fellow family member or person. And, you know, one of the things that I was taught early on was the concept, the concept of healing the world. And so the kind of guiding principle that I use in my life is I want everything that I do to be something that helps to heal the world in some small way.

Chad Franzen 03:52

Very nice, very nice. So take me through your journey up until you joined Goldberg & Goldberg. What? How did you kind of work your way into the legal industry?

Ian Alexander 04:00

So I went to law school in New Orleans. I knew I grew up in Chicago, but I went to Tulane for law school, and I loved it in New Orleans. But I knew that I didn’t want to live my life in New Orleans because, frankly, I didn’t have family there, and I wanted to be close to my family. And so I returned to Chicago. I was 24, and I started looking for work, and I found a job that I didn’t know what I wanted to do. My dad is an architect, and I thought I wanted to get into real estate or work with property developers, but I got a job. It was a terrible job market. I got a job with a trial lawyer, and I got to work on really interesting, really complex cases right away. And I think that I showed promise because I was given more and more responsibility. And I tried my first case three months after I became a lawyer, and I tried a medical malpractice case within a year. And I’ve, you know, been able to develop my trial skill set. And when I outgrew the first place that I worked, I picked what I identified as the top ten medical malpractice law firms in Chicago. And I sent my resume around, and I heard back from like five of them. A couple of them weren’t hiring, and I wound up interviewing with a bunch, and I had offers from three of the firms, and I wound up picking Goldberg & Goldberg and my partners. Now, we’ve been partners for all this time, but they’re identical twins, and they were doing medical malpractice work at the highest level since the early 70s. They really pioneered it. And so I knew that when I became a lawyer in 95, I had heard about this firm and it was like, you know, they didn’t take young guys. They were all very experienced people. And I just got locked into it. And Barry Goldberg in particular, sadly, his twin brother passed away about nine years ago. But Barry, my partner, has become more than a mentor and a partner to me. He’s family. My kids love him. My wife, we visit with him all the time and he’s, you know, he’s how I got here. And I’m never going. I’m. You know, I shouldn’t say this, but I’m never going anywhere. I mean, this is my home. And now, you know, I’ve been a lawyer for almost 30 years, so. And it keeps getting better and better.

Chad Franzen 06:47

Wow. That is. That’s fantastic. So you mentioned, you know, you went to law school. You had your first job, you did a complex case. It went well. What kind of motivated you then to go forward in representing victims of negligence?

Ian Alexander 07:00

Well, I lucked into that. And then I quickly realized that if you have any type of an entrepreneurial bone in your body and you want to control your own destiny, that the only real job in law that’s, you know, a long term growth possibility is plaintiff’s personal injury litigation. And I know there are a lot of lawyers out there that do marketing that are going to say there’s marketers and there’s trial lawyers. You cannot think that if you don’t have a trial lawyer skill set, you can’t just jump into that side of the law. You have to really develop that. Marketers, I think, can be taught to market, but there are not. There’s a reason why there’s only a few real trial lawyers in any town. And that’s because this is a skill set that’s taken me 30 years to develop.

Chad Franzen 08:02

So you, you know, you mentioned you had been involved in a complex case, right? When you got started. You’ve been involved in other ones in the last 30 years. The Amtrak Bourbonnais train disaster was one of them. Yeah. Can you share some insights into handling these types of complex cases?

Ian Alexander 08:21

Well, one, the first thing that you have whenever you do a case like a, you know, an MDL or like, you know, any kind of complex or high profile case, anything high stakes, one, you have to check your ego at the door. My partner, Barry Goldberg, is an absolute legend in the area of law, and he’s been practicing for 60 years. He tried a bunch of cases last year. He got a $25 million verdict. He’s amazing. And the first thing that he impressed upon me when I was a young lawyer was that everybody’s opinion mattered. I remember the first couple of weeks that we were in a meeting or in a deposition, and he dragged me out in the hall and he went around among. There were 2 or 3 of us that were sitting in the deposition, and he demanded that I give my opinion about something. And I felt like I was heard. And that has always been my philosophy. Every single person that I work with has a voice and they need to express themselves. I run everything by everybody because frankly, maybe my point of view is not the point of view of the common person anymore. Maybe I’ve seen too much, done too much. Maybe I’m too big of a skeptic, maybe I won’t. Maybe I think everything is horrible or things aren’t horrible enough. I need to talk to my assistants. I need to talk to the file clerks. I need to talk to my golf coach. I need to talk to whoever, everybody. I need insight from everybody. And that’s what we do here.

Chad Franzen 10:05

Would you say that that approach maybe distinguishes you as a trial lawyer? You know, especially maybe in an era where a lot of people claim expertise.

Ian Alexander 10:13

Yeah, 100%. I mean, 100% I listen. A lot of people, a lot of trial lawyers have big egos. And, you know, I get that. And listen, you have to kind of have a big ego to do what we do because you’re standing in front of 12 people. And basically that’s what this is about. You have to have the guts and the belief that you’re so good at what you do that you can convince 12 people that you’re right, because all that has to happen is one of them disagrees with you and you lose. So you have to be able to convince everybody that your point of view is right, or that if it’s not right, it’s right enough. And so people have egos and that’s that. I understand that, but I think what separates me and people of my ilk is that we’re able to put that aside. That’s why things like focus groups are so powerful and listening is so powerful, because I definitely don’t know everything. I mean, I thought we should have my 15 year old daughter on here. She would tell you what I don’t know. And by the way, she would be right.

Chad Franzen 11:32

Have you always taken that approach, or did you have to learn that over the course of.

Ian Alexander 11:37

Oh, I had to learn it the hard way. I had to learn it the hard way. My first year in practice, first, maybe 18 months, I had like nine secretaries that were assigned to me, and I was a total jerk, and I. I didn’t know how to manage people and I didn’t know. I definitely didn’t know how to collaborate. I knew how to work long hours. I knew how to grind. I’m smart and I had a lot of things, but it took me a while. It took me until probably my early 30s to become a more evolved human being.

Chad Franzen 12:16

Was there like a moment where you realized that you were a total jerk or.

Ian Alexander 12:21

Okay, there was, and I’ll tell you, because I don’t always tell this story. When I was 36 years old and my son, my firstborn son was four months old, I had a heart attack while I was on trial, and I didn’t know what was going to become of me. After that, I might thank God for my partners. I was blessed with wonderful partners that told me that I could turn my practice and anything that I wanted it to be. I didn’t have to try cases, but what I knew that I had to do was let go of a lot of I don’t know what the right word is, but I call it control. I had to be willing to let go of a lot of control, and I had to trust people. And so from that moment on, and it’s been 20, almost 20 years, I changed the way that I do things, and I wasn’t sure I was going to be able to try cases again. But thank God, I made an incredible recovery. And I have a supportive family and staff family at the office. And I’ve made those changes that allowed me. That was my moment. I mean, not everybody, but I always say having a heart attack at the age of 36 when my son was an infant, was the silver lining to a, you know, to what was a cloudy day, basically. It changed my life.

Chad Franzen 13:52

Yeah, I could, I could definitely imagine. What do you enjoy most about being an attorney?

Ian Alexander 13:58

The best thing about being a trial lawyer is giving a closing argument or cross-examining a defendant. That’s the most fun that you can have. What I like the best. And I just had this last week, I was representing the family of a brain injured infant. He’s three years old now and suffered a hypoxic injury to his brain. And the kid needs 24 hour a day attendant care. And the mom when we settle the case for $18 million. And we walked out of the mediation and I, the client was looking at me like she had never looked at me before. All the skepticism and all the doubt about what we were doing and everything was gone. and I could see that she was completely vulnerable. And she looked at me and said, what’s the best part about your job? And I said, honestly, that I can earn a nice living and I can change people’s lives. One, you know, one case at a time. I can heal the world and do my part to heal the world. And I felt like I did that last week. And I do it every day when some injustice, some wrong is righted, some injustice is called, and people are called to task. That is the best part about this job.

Chad Franzen 15:29

Yeah. I’m guessing saying like, you know, joy that you haven’t seen in a client up until this point. Seeing that joy probably never gets old, even after 30 years.

Ian Alexander 15:36

Never gets old to go to bed at night and say, that kid, that three year old kid who’s going to outlive his mother and his grandmother, and nobody’s going to be there to take care of him. It’s going to be able to have somebody looking out for him, whether it’s, you know, a court appointed guardian or people at the bank that are going to manage his funds or 24 hour a day attendant care. We did that. We did that. And we didn’t do it because anybody could do it. We did it because of our skills and that we are uncompromising when it comes to protecting little kids and brain injured people and the families and victims of wrongful death, widows and orphans. We don’t compromise. There might be other ways to do things, but we only know our way. I was taught one way by my mentor, Barry Goldberg, and that’s the only way I know. And so what?

Chad Franzen 16:40

What makes you able to do that? You know, the corporation, I guess I’m guessing most of the entities you go against have tremendous resources. Yet you’re willing to, you know, not bend, not break. How are you able to do that?

Ian Alexander 16:55

It’s a belief in myself and my client. I mean, it’s taken a long time to get there. And this is where the ego part comes in. I believe that I’m better than every lawyer when I step in the room. It’s probably not true. I’ve faced some really good lawyers. Really good lawyers. My last trial, I said to the defense attorney, you’re the best I’ve ever been against. But I was better than him. Well, the jury thought so. The jury agreed with me. Was I better than him? I don’t know, but I have to believe it. My partner says that my partner, one of my younger partners, says that I have to have. I feel I have to have a certain amount of contempt for the other side, which is also probably true, because I want to believe that everything that I’m doing is something that I’m doing because not only do I believe in myself, but it’s the right thing to do.

Chad Franzen 17:52

Great. What you mentioned is the most fun part of what you do: the cross-examination and the closing statement. What makes those particularly enjoyable?

Ian Alexander 18:03

Well, first of all, it’s enjoyable because it’s like the rarest thing that you do as a trial lawyer cross-examining and I’m talking about in front of a jury. I mean, we cross-examine people at depositions all the time. It’s not the same when you’re standing in front of a jury, and you need those people to believe your client. And on the other side of that is to most likely not believe the story that’s being told by the defendant, let’s say in a medical case, a defendant doctor who’s going to say and I’ll just give you an example, I had a case where I, the defendant doctor, wrote x ray is normal and we did everything. And he never, ever disagreed with that. When he got on the witness stand, he got up there and said, you know, I know it says x ray is normal, but I dictated x ray is abnormal and the machine that gets dictation might, must not have picked up the ab part, and it just translated it into normal. And then when he did that, none of us were there. But that’s when I had to use all of my skills, all of the resources that I learned over 30 years to demonstrate that that doctor was a total fraud and was corrupt, a liar that would say or do anything. And I had to do that with my words. And I didn’t have it’s not like I got to go wait weeks to prepare for that. And so I had to do it, I heard it, I stood up and I did it, and I was able to calculate how to do it in my mind, and I knew what tools I had available to me. And it’s pure, pure skill. And that is why the most fun thing you can do as a trial lawyer is really cross-examining a defendant doctor in a medical malpractice case. They’re they’re smart. These guys go to Harvard and Yale and Stanford. They’re smart. They are formidable. And so that’s to me, that’s the most fun. It’s a challenge. And it also, when you’re good at it, it’s the most rewarding.

Chad Franzen 20:17

Yeah I can see that. Well it sounds pretty exciting. So you know you talk about making sure or your ability to have the jury believe you maybe, maybe more so than the other person, than the other attorney that you’re going up against. What have you found to be some of the essential elements in making sure that that happens, or is it just something that you kind of get a feel for over time?

Ian Alexander 20:40

Never write a check that you’re not going to cash. I stand up in opening statements. I say I’m going to prove certain things to you, but you don’t have to take my word for it. Every single thing that I say is true, I’m going to back it up with receipts. And that’s where evidence and preparation of exhibits and all kinds of things are all. That’s where that all comes in handy, because I always say I might bore some people by repeating certain things, but I don’t know how they learn. Some people learn things the first time you tell them. Sometimes you have to. Some people say, I have to hear something 2 or 3 times. So I don’t know any of these people. I’m trying to teach about the case. And so I developed demonstratives and I develop, I do everything I can to reinforce my points in a completely credible way. I take no chances, there’s no lies, I don’t stretch the truth. And I find nine times out of ten. My opponents, they don’t do that. They take a chance. And maybe people are less prepared than me. Or maybe people let them get away with it. I don’t know, I can only speak for me and my partners. We do not let that happen. So everything that we say we’re going to do, we do it. We walk the walk.

Chad Franzen 22:02

Are there any common misconceptions people have about trial lawyers?

Ian Alexander 22:05

Yeah, they think that we’re money grubbing, ambulance chasing lowlifes. And I got to tell you that some of that is fed by propaganda from the Chamber of Commerce and that kind of thing. And then a lot of it is fed by the fact that the only lawyers a lot of consumers know are people on the run commercials, and that those are marketers. But people don’t realize they’re not lawyers when they see, you know, two, two, two, whatever, whatever, whatever, Or whatever. You know, one call, that’s all. They think those are real lawyers. And they went to law school and they could probably, like, go to court and do some things, but they would need a map to a trial courtroom. They don’t go, but the people think so. That is the mystery of this practice is that people don’t, you know, people know who they don’t know who I am. I get my kisses from other lawyers. I’d like to change that. I’d like to have more direct outreach to the public, but that’s not how it is. So that’s the common misconception is that they see these ads from people who make it just about the money, and that’s what is at the core of what we do. But most of us that do this at a high level, we have a story to tell of our own. And when we are good at telling our clients stories because they matter, we’re not. You know, I have never taken a frivolous case in my life because I invested my own money in the case, and so I couldn’t do it. I would be broke, you know, my family has to eat.

Chad Franzen 23:57

What role do you think compassion plays in the practice of law, especially in your field?

Ian Alexander 24:02

I mean, I think it’s huge. I mean, from talking to me, you can tell probably I’m passionate about what I’m about to do, and I, I think it’s you can’t do this if you’re not all the way in. If you’re not all the way in, you have to be committed to it. So my wife’s a lawyer, and she becomes so emotional that a lot of times I can’t tell her about some aspects of my cases because she bottles it up inside. It’s too much for her. So that you have those people and then you have people on the other end of the spectrum that just don’t, you know, have don’t it’s just a job. This can’t just be a job. At least in our job, being a trial lawyer, this is not something you can just be a job for you.

Chad Franzen 24:56

Is that a kind of fine line that you’ve had to learn to walk? You know, not getting too caught up in all the emotional elements of the case versus just being like, okay, you know, this is just another case that I’m doing.

Ian Alexander 25:10

Yeah, I’m good at compartmentalizing things, but I cry all the time for my clients. You know, I do it in private, I do it, you know, when I’m by myself and I’m thinking about things and I feel it, I want to be able to feel the emotional part of what’s. Of the challenges of their case and what happened to them. Because it makes me better. But it is, you know, a risk. My wife says that I need to, you know, have therapy to offload this emotion because it’s a lot of baggage. And she’s not wrong.

Chad Franzen 25:49

I have one more question for you. Thanks so much for your time. This has been a fantastic interview. Hey, tell me, before I get to that last question, how people can find out more than about Goldberg & Goldberg.

Ian Alexander 25:58

Well, you can Google my name, Ian Alexander. My partner’s name, Barry Goldberg. You can Google Goldberg & Goldberg. We have you know, we have a web presence and we have Instagram and Facebook and that kind of thing. I always say our website is sort of like our online brochure. And the best thing to do is just pick up the phone and call me (312) 368-0255 or call my cell (312) 399-8660. I pick it up. Anyone that wants to talk to me can call me, text me. I’m happy to hear from you. You know, we didn’t talk about my sex abuse cases. But, you know, I’ve done a ton of sex abuse cases. You can read about, you know, the work I did against R Kelly early on when I was a young pup. It’s all online and in, in, you know, in the lifetime documentary that our surviving R Kelly and those people love to call me and I talked to them all victims. I want victims to know that I’m here for them. So if they need to talk to someone, I’ll find the time to talk to you.

Chad Franzen 27:07

Yeah. You know, that was going to be my last question for you. Not necessarily about R Kelly, but what has been a particularly memorable, you know, time period or one case in your career that that kind of pops to the top of your head when people ask you about it?

Ian Alexander 27:20

R Kelly has dragged on for 25 years, and I’ve talked a lot about it in various formats, so I won’t really talk about that. The thing that I am proudest of, that I’ve the proudest of that I’ve done, is represent babies that are the victims of medical negligence at the time of their birth. And that our victims and never had a life without a brain injury and their families. So that’s what I’m proudest of, because those are the most helpless people in the world, and nobody knows where to turn to. Nobody knows where to turn because Mom and Dad don’t get an explanation when it happens. What happened? Nobody. Everybody kind of brushes it under the rug or covers it up, or acts like they don’t know why. A brain injury happens at the time of birth, but we have it pretty good. There’s pretty good science on the causes of cerebral palsy. And an old, old friend of mine recently said to me, you know, cerebral money doesn’t change cerebral palsy. We need advocacy for inclusion because these people turn. These children turn into adults and I agree with that. All money can do is help people survive. It can help them get the kind of care they need and the therapies. But you know, the changes that we that I’m proudest of, the changes in people’s lives, especially these brain injured kids and their families.

Chad Franzen 28:55

I guess based on that one more question then what advice would you give to people who go into a hospital? You know, I’m sure that’s kind of an exciting occasion, especially if you’re a first time parent or whatever you’re assuming, everything is going to go fine. And there’s and you know, nothing’s going to go wrong. What advice would you give to parents who are first timers, maybe going into it or or coming out of it if they suspect something has gone wrong?

Ian Alexander 29:18

Yeah. I’d like you to remind me when you said the name of this podcast. Say it one more time. Will you share your voice? Share your voice? That’s the advice I would give to parents. Use your voice. Share your voice. It’s crucial to advocate for yourself, not just in a hospital, but that’s a very important place. Ask questions. Talk to people before you go in. If something bad happens or you have concerns afterwards, share your voice so people know they’re not alone. I mean people that for too long people have been embarrassed, have been ashamed of things that happened to them. Don’t want to. I don’t believe in that. And so that’s why you are in a hospital. You are entitled to answers. Share your voice. Use your voice. Talk to people.

Chad Franzen 30:12

Okay, great. Hey, Ian, it’s been fantastic to talk to you. Thank you so much. Really appreciate all of your insights. Appreciate it. Thanks, everybody. All right.

Outro 30:21

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