The Path To Building a Compassionate Family Law Practice With Chelsea Pagan

January 1, 2025 | Written by Gladiator Law Marketing

Chelsea Pagan is a Partner at Hepner & Pagan, a boutique family law firm specializing in mediation, collaborative divorces, and premarital planning. Chelsea has always been committed to making a difference in the local community, and family law has allowed her to help families transition through complex matters while maintaining civility and focusing on issues that truly matter. Chelsea is committed to focusing her professional energy on educating people that there are alternative methods for navigating divorce without the costs and stress associated with traditional divorce litigation. In her spare time, she also serves as a scorer for Santa Clara County High School’s mock trial program.

Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn:

[01:25] Chelsea Pagan talks about her childhood inspiration to pursue law
[03:44] Negotiation tactics that go beyond arguments
[05:04] The human side of family law negotiation
[06:32] Key lessons Chelsea learned from her early experiences working in family law
[08:39] The significance of contract language in protecting rights
[11:52] Chelsea talks about how she and her partner launched a law firm
[13:40] The evolution of Hepner & Pagan’s vision and approach
[19:48] Common misconceptions people have about family law
[31:03] Practical advice for aspiring law students considering a career in family law

In this episode…

Family law is often perceived as a field defined by courtroom battles and high-stakes negotiations. But can the focus shift to collaboration, empathy, and resolutions that benefit everyone involved? How can a compassionate approach to family law not only ease tensions but create better outcomes for clients?

According to Chelsea Pagan, a seasoned family law attorney and mediator, this shift begins with fostering authentic client relationships and prioritizing resolution-based practices. She highlights the importance of understanding each client’s unique needs, particularly when it comes to highly emotional issues like custody and visitation. By blending empathy with practical advice, Chelsea empowers clients to make informed decisions while maintaining their dignity and financial stability.

In this episode of 15 Minutes, host Chad Franzen speaks with Chelsea Pagan, Partner at Hepner & Pagan, to discuss building a values-driven family law practice. Chelsea shares her journey into family law, how she uses mediation to guide clients through challenging transitions, and why education and premarital planning are critical for long-term success. She also offers advice to aspiring attorneys on navigating the profession and running a law firm.

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Chad Franzen on LinkedIn
Gladiator Law Marketing
Chelsea Pagan on LinkedIn
Hepner & Pagan: Website | Facebook | Instagram
Katharine & George Alexander Community Law Center
Emily Hepner on LinkedIn

Quotable Moments

“I wanted to be a sports agent to advocate and negotiate, finding mutual benefits for both sides in a conversation.”
“Family law is the most human side of negotiation — it’s about people’s livelihoods, their children, their ability to start fresh.”
“Try mediation first. It’s going to keep costs down, and it’s all about resolving a divorce without lawyer versus lawyer.”
“Separate if you want to be a family lawyer or own a family law firm; they’re not built the same.”
“Drafting is so important. Language is so important. Make sure your clients understand every agreement they’re about to sign.”

Action Steps

Focus on collaboration over confrontation: Emphasize mutual benefits in negotiations rather than focusing solely on winning for one side. This will foster better client relationships and lead to more favorable agreements by ensuring all parties feel heard and valued.
Invest in premarital planning education: Encourage clients to educate themselves on family law before marriage, including the intricacies of community property laws, to prevent misunderstandings and facilitate smoother processes in the event of a divorce.
Specialize in mediation and collaborative law: By focusing on resolution-based practices, law firms can attract clients who are interested in amicable solutions, aligning with the increasing demand for less adversarial legal processes.
Leverage SEO and professional networks for marketing: Use targeted keywords related to mediation and local services to improve visibility and attract the right clients.
Distinguish between running a law firm and practicing law: Understanding the difference helps in aligning career goals and preparing for the specific challenges of business management within the legal field, which is crucial for long-term success.

Sponsor for this episode…

This episode is brought to you by Gladiator Law Marketing, where we deliver tailor-made services to help you accomplish your objectives and maximize your growth potential.

To have a successful marketing campaign and make sure you’re getting the best ROI, your firm needs to have a better website and better content. At Gladiator Law Marketing, we use artificial intelligence, machine learning, and decades of experience to outperform the competition.

To learn more, go to gladiatorlawmarketing.com or schedule a free marketing consultation. You can also send an email to ad**@gl*******************.com .

Episode Transcript

Intro 00:01

You’re listening to 15 Minutes, where we feature community leaders sharing what the rest of us should know, but likely don’t.

Chad Franzen 00:10

Hi, Chad Franzen here, one of the hosts of Share Your Voice, where we talk with top notch law firms and lawyers about what it takes to grow a successful law practice. This episode is brought to you by Gladiator Law Marketing, delivering tailor made services to help you accomplish your objectives and maximize your growth potential. To have a successful marketing campaign and make sure you’re getting the best ROI, your firm needs to have a better website and better content. Gladiator Law Marketing uses artificial intelligence, machine learning, and decades of experience to outperform the competition. To learn more, go to gladiatorlawmarketing.com where you can schedule a free marketing consultation. My guest today is Chelsea Pagan, Partner at Hepner & Pagan. Chelsea’s journey began in the Bay area where she pursued her legal education, earning her Juris Doctor from Santa Clara University School of Law in 2015. Throughout her career, she has been a staunch advocate for families, leveraging her experience in family law to support those in transition. Chelsea’s commitment extends beyond her professional roles. She actively engages in volunteer work, including serving as a scorer for Santa Clara County High School’s mock trial. Hey, Chelsea, thanks so much for joining me. How are you?

Chelsea Pagan 01:17

Yeah I’m good. Chad, thank you so much for having me.

Chad Franzen 01:20

Hey, tell me, how and when did you know you wanted to become an attorney?

Chelsea Pagan 01:25

My parents will say that it was about. I was about seven when I wrote it on, you know, some, like, second grade form of what I want to be when I grow up. I don’t know that I actually understood what that meant at the time. But at some point, it never left. Right? It was always this continued narrative of, oh, I want to be a lawyer. This is what I want to do. But I don’t know that I ever really had a grasp on what that meant until obviously much later. And I, I entered law school thinking I wanted to do one thing and ended up in a totally different realm. And I think sometimes that’s just the progression you, you get to once you actually experience life a little bit.

Chad Franzen 02:05

So what was it about, you know, the idea of becoming an attorney that attracted you to even going to law school?

Chelsea Pagan 02:11

Yeah. When I finally made the decision to actually go to law school, I wanted to be a sports agent because I wanted to be able to advocate and negotiate that aspect of negotiating on behalf of somebody. Right. And advocating on behalf of somebody, whatever that meant for something that’s going to benefit both sides. Right. That’s like kind of what it’s what about it’s not just benefiting one party when you’re negotiating. You’re actually kind of having to see what’s going to mutually benefit both sides of this conversation. Otherwise it’s really just, you know, leverage against another person. And so I loved the idea of collaboration. I didn’t realize that it was all about collaboration at the time. I think that’s another kind of. Oh, this is you. You don’t really realize until you’re in it. But it turned out, looking back, that it was about the collaboration of coming to that mutual agreement that I think is so attractive, on top of the fact that, you know, when you escalate your education and your profession to lawyer versus just contract negotiator or something else like that, you have the ability to actually walk your client through it and make sure they understand. And that part of the education process, when it comes to the legal field, I just always really loved that, that contact with the client, that contact with the person for something that you’re working hard with them to do so they can accomplish something big for themselves.

Chad Franzen 03:36

Was negotiation or things like that something that you were always told that you were good at or something you always felt that you were pretty good at?

Chelsea Pagan 03:44

Yeah, I always I mean, it’s one of those things that people say, right? Like, oh, you’re good at arguing. And I’m like, well, I don’t know that that’s a good thing, right? Because some people and including myself and I think this is a very lawyerly thing to do. You’re sometimes negotiating or arguing or speaking in circles, because that’s what gets people frustrated enough to give in to what you want them to do, right? If you I don’t I don’t believe in the type of law where lawyering where you’re you know, if you keep saying it over and over again and you say it louder than everyone else and more obnoxious than anyone else, you’re going to get what you get your way. Although I know that there is people who take that approach to negotiation, but I definitely realized that I wasn’t necessarily willing to just give up because somebody said no. It was more about trying to understand why they said no. And that part of it is what I think people recognized in me at times is that it wasn’t about pressing. When somebody says no, it’s just understanding why, to see if you can overcome it. Which is the same reason why people said I would be good at sales. Right. It’s kind of the it’s kind of the same thing, like trying to overcome their objections to what you’re saying.

Chad Franzen 04:56

Sure. So you obviously decided not to become a sports agent. What? What motivated you to pursue a degree in family or, you know, specialize in family law?

Chelsea Pagan 05:04

Yeah. At first, I just got a job, right? I was in law school. I was looking for a part time job to fill in the gaps and also make sure I had, in firm experience, found a small family law firm to kind of dip my toes in. And I really enjoyed working there, just in the sense of the people. And that made it easy to like what I did on a regular basis. But what kept me in and pulled me through for many years before actually opening my own firm was that it really was the most human side of negotiation. Because this is not some business contract. It’s not, you know, a house deal where there’ll be some other house, right? These are people’s livelihood. It’s their children. It’s their ability to start a fresh chapter. And this is where the collaboration aspect of what I enjoyed about negotiating really highlighted itself for me, is that if I could figure out what the other person wanted and we could accomplish that, then negotiating the the overall deal for the family was a lot easier than just forcing your client’s position down the throat of this other side, right? And I think that’s what kept me in. It’s what really pulled me into the process and wanted me to learn more.

Chad Franzen 06:18

So you you mentioned you you worked for a boutique family law firm in the Bay area during law school. How did that kind of what were some memorable experiences from that, or what did you take away from that primarily, other than it helped push you in the direction toward family law?

Chelsea Pagan 06:32

Yeah. I mean, I was there three years through the last two years of law school and my first two years licensed. And what I learned is that it really is a choice that you make for how you run your law firm, not only in how you grow a business, but in how you treat your clients. I’m so lucky that you know who I worked for. There are still mentors of mine. I still speak to them. Have a good relationship with them now. Even though, you know, I transitioned away from that. And I also learned what I wanted to do differently. That doesn’t mean anything that they were doing wasn’t, you know, a positive experience. It’s just a different approach to how you run a firm or different approach of how you deal with clients or even the different focus on cases. And so I was able to really separate what did I want my law firm to look like? Right. And I had a great business partner who when we came together, we were able to pull from two local firms different ways to do things and mesh that all together. And so when it came to actually building a practice for ourselves, we had a little bit of experience from the two firms that we worked at that did things differently. And we’re also to say, hey, what do we want to do different. And so I’m really, really thankful for that time, because you don’t really know until you’re in it what it takes to build a law firm. And I have so much more appreciation for them, for that experience that I couldn’t have ever recognized as being, you know, when you’re an employee for somebody. And and so that’s the aspect that I think I, I when we talk about memorable experiences in the moment, I had no idea. Years later, even now, sometimes things come up and I think of think of things that happened or conversations we had when I worked there. And I’m like, I understand them now, right? Like, I I’m, I can empathize with them so much more.

Chad Franzen 08:24

Another part of your experience was I think you you assisted individuals with consumer rights and employment disputes at the Katharine and George Alexander Community Law Center. How did that impact your view of of that of consumer rights and employment? Employment?

Chelsea Pagan 08:39

Yeah, I really, really loved that program. So that was a part of being in law school. It was kind of like a, a clinic that you participate in, you get credit hours for working. That’s actually where I met my business partner, Emily Hepner, and we kind of started talking about what we did outside of law school. But it it not only gave me perspective of, okay, this is what it takes to run a case, right? Manage a case. We’re doing it pro bono. So it’s not about attorney’s fees, but we still have to track attorney’s fees because if we win an argument, we can collect on them. And that’s how the clinic makes money. So it gave me that case management experience to help me transition into my own law firm that I thought was so important, on top of the the work that I did at the firm. But when you’re actually managing the case on your own as a law student, for these people it’s just a different experience. But when it came to the consumer and employment rights aspect and the clinic part, I did mostly in the consumer, you just understand how easy it is for people to use language and contracts against somebody else. And so it and a lot of the time we were dealing with really big companies like car companies, credit companies with in-house counsel who have 25 years plus of experience. And we’re just these, you know, second or third year law students, you know, getting on the phone asking if they’ll talk to us. And so there’s there’s so many aspects that you realize that drafting is so important. Language is is so important. And making sure your clients understand all of the language that’s in every agreement they’re about to sign. Because even though things might be going well and everyone agrees to terms and they sign off on it, if there’s a situation that somebody can use the language against that other person in the future, you have to believe that that could happen. And in the consumers rights, when people are signing for purchase of cars, signing for credit cards, phones, all these different things that people do every day, the littlest provision, you know, can can really make a difference. And unfortunately, in a lot of these situations, you either get the car or you either sign the agreement they’re presenting you, or you don’t get the car because or you don’t get the credit card because these companies can afford to do that. But, you know, there’s there’s consumer rights for a reason to make sure everyone understands what kind of contracts they’re getting into. And so I think that that experience really highlighted that on top of the fact that it’s we don’t really get to take on now. Right? Being in the private sector, pro bono cases at as much as we maybe would like. Right. Because we have a business to run, we have employees to pay. And so having had such a substantial amount of time to do that in law school was very freeing. It was such a great experience, and I really always support any law student I talked to at Santa Clara. I’m like, go do the clinic. It’s the best. It’s so much fun. You learn a lot about kind of actually running a firm, too. If you’re interested in owning your own firm and also just managing big cases like that. It was a lot of fun.

Chad Franzen 11:45

So how did your your firm Hepner & Pagan come about then after you know, all that, all that experience even got in law school?

Chelsea Pagan 11:52

Yeah. So Emily and I had stayed in touch. We met, like I said, at the clinic, and we both worked for other family law firms. So we would see each other every once in a while at court, maybe have a case here and there. And we just would kind of make an effort to meet up, like quarterly and have dinner together and kind of just swap stories and check in on each other. And then I worked for that firm for three years, and I really wanted to push myself into even higher litigation mode to kind of test my skills. So I left for one year to go to a different firm to get some additional litigation experience. And I just it wasn’t right for me. It wasn’t the right fit. I knew that I wanted to be a business owner. I knew that that was the next elevation. I wanted to be able to control the type of clients I was taking on control the way we presented cases and manage cases, because I just realized I wasn’t necessarily aligned with, you know, certain approaches of other people. And that’s okay. Right. But and so I kind of just made her go out to dinner with me and said, okay, it’s now or it’s now, right? We’re doing this like I need to do this. We’re like, we’re ready. We’ve we’ve have the experience. And we both had very similar views of the type of experience we wanted to create, not only for clients but for employees. And I think over the course of like four months, we would meet, you know, every Wednesday and build our logo, our website. We’d submit all of our documents. We kind of just got all of our ducks in a row, and we were able to open up. June 2018.

Chad Franzen 13:24

Awesome. So that’s great. So, you know, you had this vision for what you would like to do based on your prior experience, whether it’s positive or negative. How soon did that vision actually become kind of reality? Was it as soon as you opened your doors or or after that?

Chelsea Pagan 13:40

Yeah, I would say that we’re always still evolving into that perfect picture that we painted, you know, almost six years ago. And you can have this vision, but when you’re opening a business, you’re also just kind of trying to get clients in the door and, and be busy. And I’m very thankful that as much as we did take, you know, a good amount of clients that came through the door just as they came and, and what cases we can get. We’ve had excellent clients that really do measure with the values that we presented. And I think that because Emily and I both project ourselves very authentically on the phone with clients like, look, this is what you’re going to get with us. We’re not going to be those, you know, Bulldogs or we’re not going to be aggressive in the way that you think lawyers need to be aggressive, right? There’s one thing of being proactive or there’s one thing of, you know, making sure that you’re advocating for your clients and educating your clients. But we are you know, we’re not going to push every little issue just because you want to. We’re going to tell you whether it makes sense or not. And at some point, if it doesn’t make sense, then we’re going to suggest you find an attorney that will pursue that issue for you, because it’s our choice what cases to take at this point. Now, that doesn’t mean we don’t, you know, we only take on the easy clients or anything like that. But it’s about finding clients that value what we’re saying and how we’re saying it. We’re a resolution based firm. We knew from day one we wanted to eventually get to primarily mediation, collaborative prenups and post-nup and then uncontested divorces. We’re still a little bit in the litigation field right now, and I enjoy it here and there. But our goal really has been to to make Hepner & Pagan a leader in the mediation realm. And each year it’s getting progressively closer to that. So we started off by just taking a case here and there. We’ve done substantial amount of training, And now it’s the primary thing that we really focus our marketing on, as well as my day to day. I mean, I used to have mediation cases maybe once a month, and now I have about ten active in a given month. So that means I’m doing mediation three times a week at least, which I love, and prenups on top of that. And then I still have my litigation cases and, and the clients that I represent on an individual basis. So from, from a what is what our cases look like. We are very close to getting, I think in the next year or so to primarily what we wanted out of that process. And from a value based system, we built a team that is in line with what we always wanted to project, which is we can help people get through this process without taking on clients that are there for revenge, that are there for to let their anger shine, which again, there there’s always going to be that this is family law. There is an emotional aspect to this and managing that is so important, but there’s clients who are angry and there’s clients who lead with their anger, and we really have been able to help a lot of our clients separate those issues out so that we can continue to help them not spend tens of thousands of dollars in attorneys fees, that we pride ourselves on keeping costs down for our clients whenever possible. And I’m just so proud of how far we’ve come. But I would definitely say it’s an always evolving process.

Chad Franzen 17:03

Sure, sure. How do you keep yourself from maybe getting caught up in maybe some of the emotion involved in some of these cases, especially if you really believe in what you’re what you’re doing, you know? Yeah.

Chelsea Pagan 17:13

Some days are harder than others. That’s for sure. When you have clients that you just so badly believe in what they’re projecting, especially when it comes to the custody and visitation part. I think it’s a little bit harder when it’s the financials. It’s a lot easier to keep it business. Right. Because it’s numbers. The the legal arguments are a little bit more black and white. I say that because it’s never that clear. But and there’s all you know, the reason we lawyers make money is because there’s always openings in some of these things. Right. Arguments that you can make. And so the custody visitation part I think is the hardest when you are just you can see that the client is so behind what they believe is in the best interest of the children. And you have to either, you know, let them know where you disagree or let them know likely outcomes and it’s not going to make them happy. You know, it’s really hard for a client to come and say, my, my child is hurting and you’re telling me I can’t do anything about it. And this is, of course, in a situation where we’ve already attempted to do something about it. Right. And sometimes that answer is yes. That’s what I’m telling you. You know, it’s not a perfect system. Family court is a always a work in progress. And on top of the fact that you have two parents that are, you know, just different people and are going to have different opinions. So that really is where I find it to be the hardest, but it gets a lot easier when you are working with clients who heed your advice. Back to kind of what I was just saying. When I have clients who are just constantly at odds with me, that doesn’t mean they’re wrong or I’m right right all the time. Especially custody. Visitation. There’s so much discretion. It’s just not that simple. But it’s wanting them to feel supported and heard. And if I’m not, if I’m not the person that’s the right fit for them to do that, then sometimes it has to be somebody else. And that’s the right fit for the client, and it’s the right fit for me. You know, professionally, we have to take things that serve us in that same way. And again, I this is not something that happens very often, but it does. And that’s okay. Sometimes clients just choose themselves, you know, don’t think I’m the good a good fit or not doing the job that they want to see for whatever reason. And that’s really where you have to kind of keep it businesslike, right? You have to say, this isn’t personal. This is somebody’s life. And they want to make a different choice. They want to make a different choice. And it gets easier over time, I think. Year one, year two. I took everything a little bit more personal. You’re running a business, and you, you want to succeed and you want to. You want clients to think you’re the best, but you’re just not going to please everyone, just like in any kind of industry.

Chad Franzen 19:42

So what would you say, maybe are some common misconceptions that people have about family law?

Chelsea Pagan 19:48

Yeah, I would say that the the most common are that just because you two agree on how to operate during a marriage means that that’s how it’s going to. You know, play out in divorce, depending on what state you live in, it’s so substantially different. And just what you think is common sense likely isn’t. You know, being in California, it’s a community property state, one of the nine. And that’s where I tell people it’s most important to educate yourself on family law before you get married, not just in the event of divorce. And so many people just assume, oh, we’re married, we’re in love. You know, whatever happens, happens. We’re never going to get divorced. But obviously we know that around 50% of marriages end in divorce. And so those people didn’t think that they were going to get divorced. But not educating yourself on on the nuances of family law and just assuming that because you operate a certain way that it’s going to work out, you know, the the things that people tend to be the most shocked about when it comes to at least community property, but it applies in so many other situations, is, oh, I owned a house before marriage. And so, you know, as long as I keep paying that mortgage and never put them on title, they don’t get anything from the house. Well, in California, if you had a mortgage that you were paying with money that you earned during marriage, it’s not exactly the case. There’s some reimbursement there. People are always so shocked by that and don’t understand. The other thing is, though, if we keep money separate, that means, you know, they they can’t get access to any money in the account that I had in my own name. Well, community property state, where was that money earned? Was it earned during the marriage? And so there’s just so many assumptions made before you get married. And I think that’s a big hole in the system. I don’t think there’s a lot of premarital planning education out there. And so that’s something I talk about a lot, on top of the fact that I really want to encourage people that if you are in the process of getting divorced, try mediation first, right. If it’s safe and I say if it’s safe in situations where there’s, you know, domestic violence or significant financial abuse in a way where there’s no trust there, from a financial perspective, it can be very difficult. But try mediation first. Going to keep costs down. The cost of attorney’s fees is expensive, right? And it’s all it’s doing is taking money from the honey pot that you two earned during marriage. It’s even if the other person pays for it, that money’s got to come from somewhere and it’s going to be more difficult. So the cost is just such a huge factor. At the same time, you can do some of these things yourself, right? You can if you if you two are in a good place, but there’s so many great resources out there for resolving a divorce that don’t look like lawyer and lawyer. And as I’m saying that from a law firm. But, you know, I participate in cases so many different ways. Sometimes I’m a divorce coach and I’m in the background there negotiating it themselves or working with another mediator, and I’m just here to answer questions along the way. It’s a great way to keep costs down. At the end of the day, I want to keep more money in my client’s pockets. My, I’m going to contribute this to my business partner. But she always used it. She got it from somebody else, which is like pay for your kids to go to college, not mine. Right. So the more money you can keep in your pocket through this process, which means you might give the other person a little bit more or give up on an issue now to move forward. But those are probably the things the most. Two of those things come with doing the work before, right before you get married. I really think that if more people invested time in premarital planning and coming up with a plan, including meeting with lawyers and considering a prenup, that even if you get a divorce, it’s going to be much more simple process.

Chad Franzen 23:35

Okay. That’s good. Very good advice. Good to know. Hey, based on your experience so far since 2018 with your firm. What has been the most rewarding maybe is was there like a case or an experience that you had that was most rewarding?

Chelsea Pagan 23:50

Yeah. You know, this is one of my first cases that I ever did. When we opened up and it was a domestic violence case. Unmarried couple, really small child. I this client came in and I just instantly knew that she just needed just a little bit of comfort. Feeling protected. She wasn’t trying to get back at anybody. Knew that if the person was going to do work, that they were going to have a relationship with their child. She accepted that she just needed space. And she was she had very clear evidence to support a domestic violence restraining order. And she was overwhelmed, terrified, didn’t feel like it was going to be a process worth pursuing. And when we secured that five year restraining order for her, it just felt like one of those moments that, you know, when you go out of your way to do something small, but obviously this was something big, but and somebody so appreciative you’re holding the door or just doing any little thing you can for another human. That same kind of feeling where you’re just like, hey, like she really, really benefited from something I did and I was just doing my job. But because she was one of my first, I think she actually was maybe my very first client at the new firm, like new client that didn’t, you know, come over from prior work and I. I’ll just never forget her face. I’ll never forget her child’s face. It’s one of those things that I think is so meaningful, and I actually don’t do a lot of domestic violence work anymore because it is so draining. It’s been really hard. But there’s there’s been a couple cases along the way since opening new firm that, you know, when they’re successful and the person feels that relief of comfort. Yes, it’s just a piece of paper. But sometimes just that vindication that they were right and a judge agreed that they deserved. This is what these, you know, these people need when it comes to a domestic violence restraining order. At the same time, I’ve seen, you know, restraining orders abused in the system for the improper purposes, and those ones are just equally as hard, right, to see happen and see play out. But she’ll always be one that I kind of frame. And that’s the that’s a case worth taking, right. A case worth doing work that might feel hard for me because it benefits somebody else so substantially. So I always go back to her because she was the first case.

Chad Franzen 26:11

You talked about how you’re you’re maybe a little bit more picky in terms of, you know, when you first started, you were willing to accept maybe a much wider variety of clients than maybe maybe you are now. How was your approach to has your approach to marketing changed?

Chelsea Pagan 26:26

Yes and no, in the sense that we focus substantially on. Very specific keywords. Right. You’re you’re not going to be we’re not going to show up with, you know, cheap family lawyer or affordable. Because the reality is, is that we don’t want to have to take on every client to be able to pay our bills, and we’re not accessible to everyone. And that simply allows us to say, okay, these people can afford us, which means it’s not going to be a constant battle for payment. And that doesn’t mean there’s not some excellent clients out there who simply can’t afford us. Right? They might be great clients, but it would be a struggle to pay us. The reality is, is sometimes it’s not the best fit for that reason because we’re going to come into a case, help them, they’re going to run out of money. And then we say, okay, we have to get out. That doesn’t help them sometimes. And so you have to find that balance. Additionally, when it comes to marketing, I mean, we used to we were probably at 50% referral, 50% marketing, but we invest a substantial amount in marketing because we want to make sure that we have the reach that we need to to build that client list, because we get some great referrals. But again, we’re not going to be the right fit for everyone. So when it comes to marketing, keywords is very important. We do a lot of mediation based keywords, a lot of local based keywords. So Campbell family lawyer Santa Clara very because that’s that’s really the client base that we’re looking to serve as much as possible. But we focus a lot on keywords and SEO on our website from blogs, putting that on LinkedIn, a lot of more professional based networking process as part of our marketing strategy, because other professionals, I think are much more, are much better referrals than just the average person or even a former client, because professionals are going to look a little bit about what’s going on in the background to figure out what referral is best, and I think that the clients we get from professional referrals are always the ones where usually if they’re connected to us, they hire us, right? Versus like a client who might say, oh, I use this person. But if that is a different case or a different type of personality, again, we’re not going to be a right fit. And so I think you really have to know that how you approach that from a organic, you know, like blog post and SEO, well, organic in the sense of, you know, searching versus actually paying for Google ads and things like that. But on top of the fact that, you know, we don’t do free consultations really anymore, which is always in family law, kind of a little controversy, more of a debate between other lawyers. A lot of people do anywhere from 15 to 30 minute free consultations. We do those for mediation cases because you have two people on board, and we want to make sure that they get access to understand mediation. But for litigation cases, you know, we do paid consultations. And so right from the beginning, even if people find us from a marketing perspective, they’re going to call and say, okay, do you offer free? And we say, no, and they’re going to move on, or they’re going to choose to invest. And you always know right away that if someone says, well, I can’t afford to pay for an hour, and it’s like, well, you know, how can you afford to pay for the retainer? And some people will say, I just want to pay for the hour. I don’t think I can afford to retain. That’s fine. Right. Like there’s lots of people that pay for for an hour here and there. Because again, I do want to be accessible when the when it’s the right situation. But I think you always have to be evolving for what people are looking for and, and how people are finding lawyers are substantially based on, you know, what is the value that you can provide them that you’re not charging for, right? The blog post, the social media, the LinkedIn, any access, any speaking engagements, any situations in which you can help people without giving them legal advice, but get them in the right direction. You’re providing value and I think that’s what consumers are looking for.

Chad Franzen 30:23

I have one more question for you. But first, just tell me how people can find out more about Hepner & Pagan.

Chelsea Pagan 30:28

Yeah. Best place is obviously our website hepnerpagan.com I’m on LinkedIn. Chelsea Pagan, Esquire and I post a lot on there, both about Hepner & Pagan and other premarital planning topics. It’s my obsession right now of what I’m talking about. And we’re also on Instagram and Facebook at Hepner & Pagan.

Chad Franzen 30:48

Okay, great. Hey, last question for you. If somebody, some young person that you knew came to you and said, I, I just graduated law school and I’m looking to get into family law, what advice would you give them that maybe they probably never learned in law school?

Chelsea Pagan 31:03

Yeah. I mean, the first thing of that, the first piece of that is to separate whether or not you want to be a family lawyer or whether you want to own a family law firm. Those distinctions, I think, are going to set your career up for where you want to go, because investing time in learning about what it takes to build a law firm, even while you’re working for somebody else, is something I wish I would have done from the beginning, because I would have just been much more set up. I would have asked more questions about the, you know, the dynamics of actual case management of the people I worked for, because running a law firm is one thing, and it takes a very different type of person. I know so many great family lawyers that have no interest in owning a law firm, and I think they’re some of the better lawyers I know. When you run a law firm, you are spread a little bit more thin. You are pulled in different directions. I know that when I’m the cases that I’m in, I’m focused in, I take on a lot less cases. And I have associate attorneys that take on, you know, the higher need cases on a regular basis so I can run the business. If my business partner told me that I could just run the business and not take on any more cases. I feel like I’d be sad for a little bit. But I would really love it, because that aspect has really drawn me in over the years of actually running the law firm and what it takes. But they’re not. People are not built the same, right? I have lots of people who I know who I feel like if they worked for somebody else, they would be even better than they are, but they work for themselves or they have their own firm and it shows at times. And I think that’s where Emily and I really thrive, is we take on just enough to do the things we enjoy, like the prenups, the mediation, some of the, you know, contested cases for the clients that are, you know, a good fit for us. And then we delegate everything else to our associates who do such a great job. So the number one thing is to figure out if you want to be a family law lawyer, or if you want to own a family law firm because it takes a different breed.

Chad Franzen 33:03

Sure. I would imagine I’m guessing they don’t teach you how to run a business in law school.

Chelsea Pagan 33:08

No, they don’t. And they don’t teach you even how to the navigate a law firm. And and case management. I think they’re starting to open the doors of some of those cases. But I feel like that’s had a had a clasp and offered like law firm management. I would have taken it 100% because it’s only adding value. Luckily, I worked both in the clinic during law school and for another family law firm where I felt like I at least understood what it was going to take once I graduated. But actually operating the business and and doing that, I think is crucial in so many lawyers are at a disadvantage when they choose to open their own firm. And it’s unfortunate.

Chad Franzen 33:47

Yeah. It’s too bad. Hey, Chelsea, it’s been great to talk to you today. Thank you so much for your time and all of your insights. Really appreciate it.

Chelsea Pagan 33:54

Yeah. Thanks, Chad. I really appreciate it too. I had a good time.

Outro 33:56

So long everybody. Thanks for listening to 15 Minutes. Be sure to subscribe and we’ll see you next time.