Building Expertise and Relationships in Estate Planning With Michael Menninger
Michael Menninger is the Owner and an Attorney at Houck Menninger Law, a boutique firm specializing in estate planning, trust, probate, and elder law. He is certified as a specialist in estate planning, trust, and probate law by the Ohio State Bar Association. Michael’s practice focuses on helping clients develop personalized plans to manage and protect their assets. He’s also a founding member of 1st Gen Entrepreneurs and shares expertise as a speaker and educator for attorneys and CPAs.
Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn:
- [01:41] Michael Menninger shares how his father inspired him to be an attorney
- [04:08] The impact of philosophy on critical thinking and practicing law
- [06:37] Transitioning from law school to a thriving legal career
- [08:10] Overcoming early challenges in establishing a law firm
- [10:27] The rigorous path to estate planning certification
- [13:59] Building client relationships beyond just legal documents
- [19:02] The importance of educating clients in estate planning
- [24:32] Michael‘s advice for aspiring estate planning attorneys
In this episode…
Estate planning is often seen as a straightforward process of drafting wills and trusts, but it’s more than meets the eye. The complexities, personal connections, and nuances in ensuring a family’s legacy goes beyond mere paperwork. What makes an estate planning attorney stand out in such a crowded and evolving field?
As a board-certified specialist in estate planning, Michael Menninger says the key lies in prioritizing relationships over documents. He highlights that the true art of estate planning is guiding clients through thought exercises that uncover unique needs and potential challenges. By taking on the role of counselor and educator, he fosters long-term connections that ensure plans remain relevant and adaptable over time. Michael emphasizes the importance of continuous learning and innovation, noting how he and his team obtain certifications and adapt to industry shifts to deliver exceptional service to their clients.
In this episode of 15 Minutes, Chad Franzen sits down with Michael Menninger, Owner and Attorney at Houck Menninger Law, LLC, to discuss the art of estate planning. Michael shares his approach to fostering client relationships, the rigorous process of becoming a certified specialist, and the challenges of starting his law firm. He also talks about balancing professional growth with personal fulfillment and offers advice for aspiring attorneys navigating the complexities of starting a legal practice.
Resources mentioned in this episode:
- Chad Franzen on LinkedIn
- Gladiator Law Marketing
- Michael Menninger on LinkedIn
- Houck Menninger Law, LLC: Website | Facebook | LinkedIn
- Probate Law Journal of Ohio
Quotable Moments
- “My father is the finest man I’ve ever known, and he inspired my journey to becoming an attorney.”
- “We focus on the relationships, not just the documents, in estate planning to ensure our clients are truly cared for.”
- “Most people don’t know how to buy what we sell; it’s up to us to ensure they’re educated.”
- “I control my own destiny here, which is exciting but also freeing.”
- “Surround yourself with good people; this profession can get lonely if you don’t have strong connections.”
Action Steps
- Foster strong client relationships: Emphasizing the importance of relationships over documents can differentiate your services in a competitive market.
- Prioritize client education: Educating clients about the complexities and nuances of estate planning ensures they can make informed decisions.
- Engage in continuous education and new certification opportunities: Continuously upgrading your skills and obtaining certifications enhances credibility and expertise.
- Understand the business of law: Beyond legal expertise, understanding the business aspects of running a law firm is crucial for success.
- Leverage mentorship and networking: Building relationships with mentors and peers within the legal community can provide essential support and opportunities.
Sponsor for this episode…
This episode is brought to you by Gladiator Law Marketing, where we deliver tailor-made services to help you accomplish your objectives and maximize your growth potential.
To have a successful marketing campaign and make sure you’re getting the best ROI, your firm needs to have a better website and better content. At Gladiator Law Marketing, we use artificial intelligence, machine learning, and decades of experience to outperform the competition.
To learn more, go to gladiatorlawmarketing.com or schedule a free marketing consultation. You can also send Adam an email.
Episode Transcript
Intro 00:01
You’re listening to 15 Minutes, where we feature community leaders sharing what the rest of us should know, but likely don’t.
Chad Franzen 00:13
Chad Franzen here, one of the hosts of Share Your Voice, where we talk with top notch law firms and lawyers about what it takes to grow a successful law practice. This episode is brought to you by Gladiator Law Marketing, delivering tailor made services to help you accomplish your objectives and maximize your growth potential. To have a successful marketing campaign and make sure you’re getting the best ROI. Your firm needs to have a better website and better content. Gladiator Law Marketing uses artificial intelligence, machine learning, and decades of experience to outperform the competition. To learn more, go to gladiatorlawmarketing.com where you can schedule a free marketing consultation. My guest today is Michael Menninger, Owner and Attorney at Houck Menninger Law LLC. With a passion for real estate planning ignited early in his career. Michael has dedicated himself to becoming one of only approximately Similarly, 155 attorneys in Ohio certified as a specialist in estate planning, trust, and probate law by the Ohio State Bar Association. His approach combines technical expertise with heartfelt counseling, enabling him to navigate complex, complex strategies while forging long lasting, meaningful relationships with clients. Beyond his professional achievements, Michael cherishes his role as a husband, father, and dedicated sports enthusiast. Finding joy in family game nights and supporting FC Cincinnati and the Cincinnati Reds. Hey, Michael, thanks so much for joining me today. How are you?
Michael Menninger 01:34
Thanks, Chad. I’m good. How are you doing?
Chad Franzen 01:35
Good. Thanks. Hey, tell me, how and when did you know you wanted to become an attorney?
Michael Menninger 01:41
So my father is an attorney, and he is the finest man I’ve ever had the opportunity to know. And so once my dream of being a baseball player, an astronaut or a baseball playing astronaut not kind of faded. It never really occurred to me to ever be anything else, just because he was kind of my role model, and that’s where I ended up landing. So yeah, we do different things now in our respective practices, but it just never really occurred to me to ever do anything else.
Chad Franzen 02:12
So what was life like growing up in Harrison, Ohio?
Michael Menninger 02:17
Small town that’s kind of grown up a little bit. To kind of give you an idea of of where I came from. One of my very first jobs was actually picking corn for one of the local farmers. So kind of walking behind the truck and actually picking corn or working in the shed and bagging up sweet corn. So yeah, it was it was a small, small town. Good people. My roots. My parents are still out there, actually.
Chad Franzen 02:43
Why did you you went to Saint Louis University and you studied in business. What led you to study those? That combination of majors.
Michael Menninger 02:53
Yeah. So Saint Louis University was kind of a natural extension for anybody that that might know about towns like Cincinnati. Where where did you go to high school, is the question. Right? I went to Saint X, which is Catholic, Jesuit and Saint Louis University is also Catholic Jesuit and got a great education there. I will tell you, I started off in finance and didn’t love it. And so I really wanted to try to help train my brain to critically think. And so I decided that philosophy was maybe the path that I should go. So, you know, while my friends in college were all getting their, you know, accounting and finance and engineering internships, not a lot of philosophy internships out there. So I was still cutting grass and doing that kind of stuff, but it did help kind of train my brain for what I get to do now, just different ways to think, different ways to think about things. And then I ended up getting my certificate in business administration. Anyway, since I, you know, I had the business credits and thought it might be helpful to helpful to just continue on that path a little bit.
Chad Franzen 03:56
In what ways does philosophy encourage you to think differently? I think people here I think you learn a lot about, you know, ancient ancient philosophers and things like that. But how do you think differently?
Michael Menninger 04:08
So it’s certainly getting different perspectives. It puts a fine point on morality and ethics and kind of the, the distinction between the two. And you know, reading philosophy texts is not easy. And reading cases in, you know, law school is not easy. And reading statutes is not easy. And so being able to kind of go through text to dissect what they mean and then kind of apply it to practical applications and thought exercises help in my practice. Now with estate planning, I have to put my clients through thought exercises as well. And so it is a matter of finding a way to convey things to people, to get them to maybe think about things that they hadn’t really thought about, or to think about things in a different way, because there’s a lot of educating that has to be done. Just I don’t know why they would be, but most people aren’t super sophisticated in estate planning. It’s not that they couldn’t be if they put their mind to it, it’s just they’ve chosen other paths. So it’s kind of up to me as a counselor, as an educator, to get them to think about things a little bit differently.
Chad Franzen 05:17
Sure. So upon graduating from college, how did you go about pursuing a career in law?
Michael Menninger 05:25
So, you know, I went to did the whole law school thing. I came back home, went to my dad’s alma mater, actually Chase College, Northern Kentucky University, and then got my start at a midsize firm, really good firm in Cincinnati. Had the opportunity to actually work with my dad for a little bit. So for about eight years I was there, but I was I was a bit of a Swiss Army knife when I was there. And I. I felt like I was good at a number of things, but not excellent at anything. And I didn’t really. I didn’t take ownership of my path at that time. And so I felt a little bit listless and not not an indictment on anything that happened there. It’s an indictment on me and what my mindset was at the time. And, you know, I had toyed with the idea of potentially even leaving law and going into something else, but I ended up finding a state planning and an opportunity hit reset on my career after about eight years and fell in love with the state planning. So now I do this full time.
Chad Franzen 06:32
Awesome. How did you how did you kind of just transition into specializing in it?
Michael Menninger 06:37
So the the, the bigger firm mentality is a great fit for some but not for all. And I tend to be in that latter category where the big firm wasn’t really for me. And I didn’t really know that. I didn’t know anything else other than having a bunch of lawyers around you and work credit and origination credit and, you know, billable hours. And that was just kind of how how life and work was defined. And it never occurred to me that there was another option. And so I found an opportunity with a really good boutique estate planning firm up in the northern part of Dayton, and cut my teeth there and learned a lot about the the law and having a practice. And the idea of a small practice just fit me better personally and professionally. So yeah, the the path there led me here. And now I have my own practice with a certified elder law attorney as a law partner and a great team behind me. I don’t even say behind me. That’s not even fair to what they do for our firm. A great team right there on the front lines with us and and yeah, I get to I live ten minutes from where I work so I can get home and see the kids And you know, I can go to my daughter just had her first haircut. You know, last week. So I was able to cut out the middle of the day for a little bit and just, you know, I control my own destiny here, which is exciting, but it’s also freeing.
Chad Franzen 08:01
That’s great. Tell me about the kind of the early days with your firm. Was it was it smooth sailing or did you have to overcome some challenges?
Michael Menninger 08:10
So yeah, things have gone really well. I think certainly I don’t want to say that that a ton of luck played a part of it. But, you know, I think to a certain extent things have to go your way a little bit. But but we worked hard. My partner and I worked hard. We literally started at my kitchen table and we weren’t really sure. I don’t want that’s not fair either. We didn’t we didn’t have a paying client at that point, you know what I mean? Like, so doing all the LLC paperwork and doing an operating agreement and figuring out some marketing strategies and who can we talk to and where the heck are we even going to do office space and just all that kind of stuff. And my whole my whole life I had just been a W-2 employee. Right. And, you know, I do think that’s kind of where I. It’s not a misstep, just it’s a long, winding road. And every step leads you to where you are. But I never appreciated laws of business in the early part of my career, I just didn’t. It was a job. But and I know people pay and there are expenses and my check cleared and we have to buy copy paper like. Intuitively, I could understand those things, but it was never really a focus for me as a young associate, just kind of cranking. So but, but you had to learn a whole bunch really fast. And, you know, it’s lean and mean and I’m trying to build a website and we’re trying to go visit Office Space, and meanwhile we’re trying to reconnect with referral sources. And, you know, just all all. Yeah, it was a little bumpy at first. Probably took us a month and a half before we actually had the first person in the door that paid us. But. Fortunately, you do good work and you take care of people, and your reputation gets out there, and people want to take care of you, too. So when we were able to reconnect with people, we were able to start getting referrals. Our website did a yeoman’s job of letting people know, you know, I had to learn everything about Google my business. And, you know, just all the stuff that I it never occurred to me that that I would ever have to really learn. My partner and I both put our heads down and we figured it out.
Chad Franzen 10:16
As I mentioned, you are one of, you know, around 50, 155 attorneys in Ohio certified in estate planning, trust and probate law. What goes into that?
Michael Menninger 10:27
Oh, so the front end of that is well, I mean, there’s test taking, of course, but just to even sit for the test, you have to demonstrate to the bar association that you have taken a considerable amount of what they call advanced continuing legal education. Right. So the 12 hours is the normal CLE amount in Ohio for an attorney per year. But we had to you have to demonstrate to even sit for the test that you had 45 hours of advanced education, continuing education. I think it’s 45 hours. You had to have seven independent people advocate for you, so you had to basically get references from seven independent people and nobody that was in your firm or anything else like that. You have to basically sign an affidavit that a certain percentage of your work is dedicated just to this area of the law. Right. So they don’t want you being you can’t be board certified and only do 100 hours. You have to have a minimum threshold of hours. And that’s just to sit for the test. And that was unlike any test I’ve ever taken. And I’ve taken a lot. I took the bar exams in Ohio, Kentucky, Indiana. I’ve taken, you know, multiple federal bar exams in the early part of my career. You know, I’ve been a good test taker, you know. But every one of those tests came with study materials, and this test did not. So, you know, talking to other people who had done it and, you know, conjuring things and getting copies of, you know, Anderson’s probate treatise and every issue of the Ohio Probate Law Journal going back 15 years and annotated trust code like just it was kind of a free for all. And I, you know, just studied, studied, studied reading cases, reading statutes, reading annotations, reading those law journals. And, you know, otherwise, the continuing education that I’ve done was helpful. But, you know, it was a it was a grueling test.
Chad Franzen 12:30
So what what benefit does that certification have for you?
Michael Menninger 12:34
Well, so so first off, in order to maintain it, I’ve got to keep up with my game. So now I have on annual reporting requirements, advanced continuing education requirements. So I can’t just sit back and call myself that unless I’m nurturing that distinction. And look, I’m not I don’t I don’t like to position it as a way to brag. But, you know, my partner is a certified elder law attorney and I’m a board certified estate planner. We work hard for those things. Right? And there aren’t a ton of firms around here that that have both of those distinctions and in the state, really. And it’s a way for us to demonstrate to our clients and prospective clients that this is what we do and we’re good at it. I, we don’t dabble elsewhere. Right. If if somebody wants to come in and they’ve got a lawsuit, we refer them out. I just had a meeting with another lawyer yesterday where I’m referring work out like that. I we know our lane, we stay in it, we’re good at it. And then we try to make friends with everybody else. So that way, if we need somebody to come take care of an issue for us, or somebody walks through these doors or finds us on Google, and it’s something that we can’t do or aren’t willing to do. We have friends that can help, but it does position us in the marketplace as experts. And yeah, it just helps us be good planners too.
Chad Franzen 13:52
So tell me a little bit about your approach then to estate planning and how you kind of take clients through that process.
Michael Menninger 13:59
Yeah. So. We are we’re more focused on the relationships than the documents. Okay. And I know that our, our, the marketplace is shifting with, you know, you’ve got trust and will and legalzoom and artificial intelligence is trying to come for all of us everywhere. You know, it doesn’t matter what industry you’re in. So how do you distinguish yourself? And I know that people say, well, there’s the human component that can’t ever be replaced. And okay, still, there’s if people only think that they’re getting documents when they hire us. Then, whether we like it or not, we’re in competition with everybody else who provides documents wherever they come from. So we try to focus on the relationship, and that starts with us. We don’t charge for our first meeting. We just we never do. It’s not how we’re wired, because if people want to hire us, our goal is for them to stick around long term. So we give. That’s saying to you the same thing I might say to somebody else, I don’t want you to feel pressure from this conversation. I want us to just let’s have a conversation. Let’s see if it’s a fit. Let’s ask some questions. Let’s get to know each other a little bit. And if we end up working together, great. And if not, that’s okay. But that’s kind of how we start every dynamic here. And then we take people through the process. We’ve got a number of steps to, you know, work through designing a plan and implementing a plan and funding a trust and family meetings and all of those things. But then at the end of all of that, we even have a maintenance program in our office where we give clients the opportunity to stay engaged through the years. We even have a level of our maintenance program that doesn’t cost anything. We just now limited engagement at that point, but even then, we still want clients to stay connected because if they stay connected, the odds of their plan being successful when it’s needed go up. Incalculably just these people tend to do these things and let them sit. Not here, not in our office. If you’re going to engage us, you’re going to be in this for the long haul. That’s our approach from from jump.
Chad Franzen 16:03
Has your approach evolved over the years through working with clients?
Michael Menninger 16:09
Yeah. It has you know you try to. The global philosophy has not. But I think maybe the tactics have. It’s always been our intent to have a little bit of a different a different touch to not just be in the document sales business. That’s part of the reason why Rachel and I are in business together, because philosophically, we share that we want more out of this than just an exchange of money for documents. We. I find satisfaction in the relationships from the clients. Maybe that’s selfish. I don’t really know. You know, going going back to the philosophy and the, you know, the the Kantian approach to this. And do you do things because it’s the right thing to do or because you get some benefit from it? I get some benefit from the relationships I like it. Does that mean I sometimes leave money on the table? Yes it does, but that’s made up for when I have a client that comes into the office yesterday and we’re talking about the new RV they bought, like that’s the stuff that moves me in this practice. So but we’ve gotten better at systems and process. We’ve gotten better at deliverables. And that’s a never ending journey, right? We’re always looking for ways to improve our ability to connect with our clients, to provide value to our clients and, you know, to find ways to do it that keep us moving forward, too. Right? We can’t. We got we got employees whose checks got it clear, and I got a mortgage at home that I got to pay. And, you know, I got kids I’m saving for college for, so I can’t work for free. So we can find ways here to be efficient, to provide real value and to maintain those connections. And, you know, it all sounds pie in the sky, but that’s what we’re striving to.
Chad Franzen 17:48
And client education is a big part of it.
Michael Menninger 17:50
It’s a huge part of it. I most people. Don’t know how to buy what it is that we sell. There’s a lot of bad information. There’s a lot of partial information. There’s a lot of perception that this is one, a document or two. It’s just simple. And maybe for some people it is. But a good plan goes layers deep. And so, you know, 999 people out of a thousand that come see me, they say, oh, it’s just it’s my stuff is simple. Well, you start asking questions and you and you start peeling the onion. Everybody’s got unique circumstances, everybody’s got unique considerations. And so part of my job is to help break that down and get below. Get below the surface level stuff. Because yeah, if everything is hunky dory and everything goes exactly the way that it’s supposed to go according to plan. And yeah, estate planning can be very easy, but a good estate plan contemplates all the things that go sideways. So I think I, I lost track of where I was going with all of that, but that’s okay.
Chad Franzen 18:59
That’s okay. So so you’ve been a they go ahead.
Michael Menninger 19:02
They don’t they don’t we we need them to be educated because I remembered where I was. They, they it’s true of all of us. We can’t make good decisions unless we’re educated. There’s some version of let me go read a thousand Amazon reviews before I go buy this thing or let me, you know, go to Consumer Reports and do this or let me. And if people don’t know what it is that we do, then it’s incumbent upon us to make sure that they’re educated. And so for us, we us. We want education to be part and parcel along the way. That’s why we, you know, do community workshops. That’s why we have a lot of education materials for our clients through the process. We’re working on online courses right now that we’re going to put out there for free for people just to to get some information, because we say an MB law client is an educated client, that there’s no exceptions.
Chad Franzen 19:54
Very nice. So you not only do client education obviously, but you’ve also been a faculty member and an instructor working with attorneys and CPAs. Tell me a little bit about that experience.
Michael Menninger 20:06
So I have to, you know, thank my my former employer for sort of thrusting me into this. One of the first things that we we did was it was technically even before my start date. It wasn’t before my start date, but we had a he was presenting to CPAs on a particular topic, and I think it was kind of baptism by fire. He was like, hey, come do this with me. And we did. And it went really well and I had not really done that before. And so he stretched me to get in front of people and to speak and to speak means you got to know what you’re talking about. So it forces you to learn and refine and getting reps. But I’ve always enjoyed the opportunity to share. I’ve been given so much from people willing to give their time and expertise that I think if I can do the same for others, I think it’s really important to do that. So yeah, I’m on the list of, you know, I’ve done things for the Dayton Bar Association and the Cincinnati Bar Association. There’s some national CLE companies that I did one a couple of weeks ago on tax reporting and probate, and I’m doing one in July coming up here on the Corporate Transparency Act. So I like doing it. I like sharing it’s I think it’s good for my name. It’s good for my brand. But it’s also good to just share because, you know, if you’re willing to give. Things come back to you. I believe that.
Chad Franzen 21:26
I mentioned it in your intro and you, you also kind of alluded to it. You’re a big family. A big family man. What’s your favorite way to spend time with your family?
Michael Menninger 21:34
Geez, we got young kids at home. So it’s, you know, it’s been a bit of a free for all for these last couple of years. But, you know, I love the my times in the evenings when I get to come home and settle in and we have dinner time and play time after dinner before the girls go to bed. We like being outside. We bought a camper last year and we’re going to be doing more camping this year. So just I love that kind of just downtime. It doesn’t have to be anything specific. And as the girls grow up, I don’t know. Hopefully they’ll be soccer fans too. But but for now, it’s the the times just in the evenings together, all five of us. That’s that’s what I love.
Chad Franzen 22:10
Yeah. Awesome. So are you a season ticket holder for FC Cincinnati?
Michael Menninger 22:14
Yeah. So my wife and I, our third date was FC Cincinnati’s second home game ever when they were they were still minor league in the USL and had a great time at the game, had a great time with her and committed to both pretty soon thereafter because we ended up getting married and I bought season tickets the next day. I maybe I shouldn’t say this where this is going to be published, but I guess I committed to FC Cincinnati sooner than I committed to my wife. But but yeah, that. And it’s still something that she and I enjoy to this day. It’s our very common date night. But so that was 2016, I guess. And I’ve been a season ticket holder ever since.
Chad Franzen 22:53
How did you get into soccer?
Michael Menninger 22:56
I’ve always been a sports guy. And I, I never I was I enjoyed watching soccer growing up. I did the basketball baseball stuff. And didn’t really play soccer. But I enjoyed watching it and kind of got into it over the years. And. But I’m also the guy that when Cincinnati had an Arena Football League team, I bought tickets to the Arena Football League. And but as as I’ve grown up and older, I’ve started watching soccer more and team came in, so I figured I’d. I didn’t plan on getting season tickets when I went after that first game. But you know, you go to Nippert Stadium, which is a great environment, and 16,000 people there screaming and soccer’s a great sport to watch. So just kind of fell in love with it there. And here I am.
Chad Franzen 23:40
Very cool. Hey, I have one more question for you, but first tell me how people can find more about Houck Menninger Law.
Michael Menninger 23:48
Yeah. So hmestateplanning.com is our website. We’ve got a blog. People can find us on LinkedIn and Facebook as well. We try to push content and helpful stuff out there where we can. There’s a way to connect with us through a website. You just got to send us a message and we can schedule what we call our let’s Talk meeting. We call it that because let’s talk. That’s it. It’s all it’s about. But yeah, hmestateplanning.com is the best place to go.
Chad Franzen 24:15
Okay. Hey, if somebody came to you and said that maybe they just graduated law school, or they’re working their way through law school and they’re interested in doing estate planning. What advice would you tell them that maybe they wouldn’t learn just through formal education?
Michael Menninger 24:32
I think understanding the business aspect of it, making sure that if there are, you know, internships or associate positions or law clerk positions or anything else, don’t hesitate to ask the people that you’re working with and for to get a peek under the hood. Because, again, I spent the first eight years of my career doing good legal work and not having any understanding or knowledge or appreciation of the business of law. And you got it. There’s a business of law. I mean, they’re just it’s obvious. But it wasn’t so obvious to me for the first eight years of my career. So get get the different information, like the different aspects of the firm, understand the business piece and the other piece of information I would give. And this is true of anybody irrespective of their. There their their path in law. Be friends with as many people as you can. Find mentors. Find connections. Find allies. Most people want to help each other and then internally to make friends with your other associates and make friends with the staff and, and, you know, paralegals and clerks and administrators and whatever. Just, just it can this profession can get lonely if you don’t surround yourself with good people. And don’t don’t let that happen. Surround yourself with good people, make friends and look out for other people to make yourself available.
Chad Franzen 25:56
Okay. Good stuff. Hey Michael, it’s been great to talk to you. Thanks so much for your time and your perspective and all of your insights. Really appreciate it.
Michael Menninger 26:03
Yeah, same. I appreciate it.
Chad Franzen 26:04
So long everybody.
Outro 26:07
Thanks for listening to 15 Minutes. Be sure to subscribe and we’ll see you next time.
