Gladiator Law Marketing for Attorneys
Gladiator Law Marketing for Attorneys


Caring for People by Practicing Law With Amanda Shaffer, Esq.

September 21, 2022   |   Written by Gladiator Law Marketing
Amanda Shaffer

Amanda Shaffer, EsqAmanda Shaffer, Esq. is a partner and the Chief Marketing Officer at The Shapiro Law Firm. She has worked for this small, family-oriented firm for over a decade, starting her work there as a law intern. Her areas of expertise include civil litigation, business organization, property, wills, and a focus on immigration. She earned her J.D. from Quinnipiac University School of Law and her bachelor’s degree from the University of Michigan.

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Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn:

  • The evolution of Amanda Shaffer’s law firm
  • How Amanda came to start working with her brother-in-law
  • Which channels have gained the most traction since the pandemic?
  • The daily rituals that help Amanda succeed
  • Amanda’s life and how she almost got kicked out of the Supreme Court
  • The people who inspire Amanda and her work
  • Michael and Amanda’s favorite podcasts

In this episode…

What does it look like to practice law and care for people? While the service is essential and desperately needed, the very idea of a law firm conjures fears of heavy fees and tedious litigation. It can be challenging to untangle the two concepts and find a direct path between the two. Amanda Shaffer finds purpose in her position by focusing on immigration law through her modest law firm. Likewise, she started small, teaching herself legal marketing and proper lawyering. It has been a long but fruitful journey; now, she shares her hard-won insights with you. In this episode of 15 Minutes, Michael Renfro sits down with Amanda Shaffer, Esq., a partner and the Chief Marketing Officer of The Shapiro Law Firm, to sift through her approach and her story. They begin with starting at the law firm with her brother-in-law and what she learned early on. They also discuss her daily rituals, her greatest inspirations, and even touch on some of her favorite podcasts. Stay tuned to hear all of this and much more!

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Sponsor for this episode…

This episode is brought to you by Gladiator Law Marketing, where we deliver tailor-made services to help you accomplish your objectives and maximize your growth potential. To have a successful marketing campaign and make sure you’re getting the best ROI, your firm needs to have a better website and better content. At Gladiator Law Marketing, we use artificial intelligence, machine learning, and decades of experience to outperform the competition. To learn more, go to or schedule a free marketing consultation. You can also send an email to

Episode Transcript:

Intro 0:01 You’re listening to 15 Minutes, where we feature community leaders sharing what the rest of us should know, but likely don’t. Michael Renfro 0:12 Hello, everyone, Michael Renfro here I’m the host of 15 Minutes where we talk with top notch lawyers and law firms, and law marketers about what it takes to grow a successful law practice. This episode is brought to you by Gladiator Law Marketing where we deliver tailor made services to help you accomplish your objectives and maximize your growth potential to have a successful marketing campaign and make sure you’re getting the best ROI possible. Your firm needs to have a better website and better content in order to do this. At Gladiator Law Marketing, we use artificial intelligence along with machine learning and decades, literally close to a century actually, of experience to outperform the competition. To learn more, go to Gladiator, excuse me, Or you can schedule a student to schedule a free consultation, or you can just reach out to me by email. And that’s simply Michael And I will schedule something for you. With that today’s guest is Amanda Shaffer. And I’m going to bring her on here in just a moment. Amanda is been gracious enough to join us. And we’re going to have just a few questions. We’re going to kind of keep it short today, because both of us have a very busy schedule. So with that said, I will just give a quick moment for Amanda to introduce herself. Amanda, how are you doing today? Amanda Shaffer 1:30 Good, Michael, thanks for having me. Michael Renfro 1:33 Thank you. And would you tell the folks where you are and what you do and concerns of the law? Amanda Shaffer 1:40 Sure. I am in New York City in Manhattan. And I’m a lawyer, we focus on immigration, family criminal law, and I’m also the Chief Marketing Officer of our law firm. Michael Renfro 1:54 Oh, so I’m actually talking to somebody who does the marketing for the law firm. Amanda Shaffer 1:58 I do it I do it. I didn’t say I do it. Well, but I do it. Michael Renfro 2:02 You understand it? And the fact is I you know, whenever I talk to somebody about marketing, the first thing I always point out, is it really no, it’s sales are sales. And what I mean by that is a lot of things are similar to what attorneys do in the sense of what salespeople do. But marketing is a whole different ballgame that a lot people don’t realize is separate even from sales, because the marketing is to get them to see you and give you the opportunity. And then your salesmanship is what closes the deal. Right? Amanda Shaffer 2:29 Yeah, that’s my partner. He’s the salesman. Michael Renfro 2:31 He’s the salesman. Gotcha, gotcha. Well, you know, if it matters, usually I have found the best partnerships is where one is good at one and the other is good of the other that way, you don’t have the split time, and you have more focused on on what you’re actually good at. So kudos, I’ll get right into it. So how, how did you get started with? It’s funny because you do a few different things there. I wouldn’t say your general practice, but you obviously have more than one. How did you get started in all this? Amanda Shaffer 2:58 Well, so my law firm is me and my brother in law. He started the firm when I was in law school, and he started the firm. It was just immigration. And when I joined, we were probably 90% or more doing immigration. And as like, you know, time went on our clients had additional needs, a lot of our clients didn’t know, other attorneys, or didn’t know how to find other attorneys to return to us. And there’s certainly, you know, immigration other than patent law is the most complicated area of law. So it’s a lot easier to transition from immigration law to another area, then from that area to immigration law. Right. So criminal kind of went hand in hand with a lot of immigration problems, and then a lot of family law. Michael Renfro 3:51 Since now, I can see how that happened. Because these folks used you for this. And they’re like you say they don’t know anybody probably sometimes have trouble with English in general. So they’ll come to you who they already know and trust and like, Hey, Amanda Shaffer 4:05 can you help with this? Yeah, yeah. And, and unfortunately, it’s a population that tends to take it get taken advantage of more than others because because of of their lack of knowledge. Michael Renfro 4:16 Exactly. Knowledge. I wouldn’t even call it it’s just it’s just not being familiar with America and not understanding every word that they hear. Right. Yeah. foreign country. Amanda Shaffer 4:27 Yeah. So um, so that’s how that’s how we started doing all of that. And now I would say immigrations, probably 50% of our practice. We do a lot more family law we do a little civil litigation defense. Nothing crazy. McGann it’s usually client comes in it’s a need it’s something we can handle. No, we don’t do big commercial cases or anything. But But yeah, that’s pretty much how we got into there as we got into and we Aaron started in immigration. That’s my law car. there, because that’s where he got his first job out of law school doing immigration. So that’s when he decided to start the practice of doing. Michael Renfro 5:08 No, it makes sense. I found that many times no matter what we study life tends to take us where we’re supposed to go with that knowledge of that, if that makes any sense. Amanda Shaffer 5:17 Yeah, well, they always told us in law school, like you’re gonna, whatever you can try to get into the area of law you want, but it’s gonna be where you get a job. Right? It’s Michael Renfro 5:25 gonna be where law once you write exactly. Let me let me ask us, what was the what was the beginning? thing or, or whatever you want to call it? But what was it that had you want to become an attorney in the beginning? Amanda Shaffer 5:44 Um, I’ve always wanted to be an attorney since the beginning. Since I could talk, people told me I should be an attorney. And there was never any other path in my mind. Michael Renfro 5:58 So what were the I know, this is, you know, you were in law school. So were your early days with your brother in law? Did you come right out of law school, if I’m hearing and come to work with him? Amanda Shaffer 6:08 Yeah, so I graduated law school in 2012. And there were virtually no jobs for new lawyers, then nobody wanted to hire us, because law school doesn’t really teach you practical training. So it’s hard to get a job out of law school. And that was particularly our time. So Aaron kind of took he had started, the firm already took me in part time to kind of build, you know, just to get some experience, while I continue to apply for jobs. And you know, it at first, the intention wasn’t that I was gonna necessarily stay with him. It was, you know, whatever, whatever the path was going to lead to, like, I literally, I didn’t have a seat when I started, he couldn’t afford to rent me a space to sit. Because we have, we’re in a suite of other lawyers, like all small firms and solos, right. So I sat on the floor, most days to do my work. And then started, you know, turned out, he was a, he was my mentor time, he was really good mentor. And we worked really well together. And I built, you know, I built myself up where I went from sitting on the floor to getting a desk in the door to a window. Partner. So it took, it’s been a decade now. But initially, it was going to be temporary. And, you know, having the autonomy of you know, even though I was working until recently, when I became partner, I was working for him. You know, I wasn’t, I still had the freedom to do what I wanted. And I had to make the way for me to stay with him and to continue to have this autonomy was to bring in business. Right. And that’s, that was really what I had to do to work myself up where I was bringing enough clients that I can get make enough money that I didn’t have to go out and find a different job. Michael Renfro 8:05 You know, it’s kind of funny, but it sounds like it worked out exactly the way it needed to for. I mean, I’m sure there were some hard times I’m gonna be wrong. We all know there’s ups and downs with everything we do. That’s part of life, right? You can’t have a great day without having a bad day. But at the same time, it sounds like it worked out to give you a fairly comfortable. Yeah, I mean, I know wasn’t sitting on the floor comfortable. But nonetheless, a comfortable means of transitioning in when there really was no opportunities for you in the the traditional media, if you will. Amanda Shaffer 8:35 Well, it gave me a great story. Great story. It also gave me an appreciation for where I’ve come from and where we’re where we are now. And it also ended up forcing me to learn a lot of new skills in order to make it so that I can get make more money. I mean, I learned how to automate PDFs, I learned how to build a website, I learned how to do marketing, all on my own. So these were things that were I would have worked somewhere else I may never have you even looked into now. These skills come in handy in many different ways now. Michael Renfro 9:17 Oh, no, I’ll just say this, cuz I built my first website back in 98 with a Windows 98. And I remember thinking then I was like, you know, no, it’s not the same. But even that knowledge has helped along the way as things have changed. And we’re now into, you know, web three along and all this stuff, but it’s funny because those skills will never, they’ll never do you wrong and they’ll always they’ll always help you. You’re absolutely correct on that. And you know, with the talking about ups and downs, was there any one Heisei turning point that was maybe a milestone and it doesn’t necessarily be bad or good but just something that was you know, significant that really pointed your career where it is now, if you will. Amanda Shaffer 10:04 Yeah, that was the launch of the website I built in 2016. It took me nine months to make, I came to work, worked, nine to five, went home, worked out, ate dinner, worked on the website to one two in the morning, and did it all over again. And that was because Aaron was very adamant that I’m not paying you to make website, I’m paying you to be a lawyer to own. Yeah, so he’s like, You can do whatever you want. But you need to do this on your own time. And, you know, I spent some time in the office doing it. But for the most part, I did it at home. And it I was I was lucky that Aaron had some, like, basic website up there. So we had the domain name already, at least, and that for a number of years, I don’t think anyone ever seen that website, honestly. Um, so but at least I have that going for us. So we weren’t starting from zero. But then and then of course, it takes a little time for the website to start taking off. But once that launched, that was when I finally started getting calls from the website and getting my own referrals. And then, you know, ever since that point, we’ve we’ve only gone up. Michael Renfro 11:22 Kudos, that’s awesome. That really is and that, you know, just from an SEO perspective, and someone who does it, you must be writing some outstanding content in order to be doing that. Because that really a lot of what it has to do with it. And there’s backlinking I know that backlinking changed a lot just this past December, because Google did a big update and kind of changed the entire backlinking gang. And what showed proof and we always call the king contents always been keen, right. But now it’s it’s it’s, it’s more King than it ever has been over the last like, say six, seven years since that update in December. So keep it up. That’s awesome. And I’m not gonna ask the next question, because honestly, that literally, my next one is what gave you the most traction. You just said the website obviously launching and the content and all that stuff started Amanda Shaffer 12:10 that that was in 2016. Now, Michael Renfro 12:13 also, I’m wrong. I’m sorry, what is that? What? So tell me what that was, then I would Amanda Shaffer 12:17 say it shifted. You know, I know the marketing world shifted a lot. And it shifted. You know, I started the shift before COVID. But COVID was a huge driver of it to social media marketing. And that’s when I started doing live videos. I have a lot of live videos, I have a lot of video, Michael Renfro 12:41 are you doing them? If you don’t mind me asking? Amanda Shaffer 12:44 Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, when I have the energy to put it on LinkedIn and Twitter. I do. But mainly those three? Because I could do those three at once. Right? I’ve, I’ve even had it but like, I want to do it again. I just don’t have time. But I had a game show for a little while. called Are You Smarter Than naturalized citizens. So it was about questions about the naturalization tests and speaking immigration. But doing those live videos, and you know, when you talk about original content, I mean that literally, that’s all I do. I create every all of our content. But I have new content coming in every day, just from cases talking about our cases talking about what we do. And I find that, that that’s one of the things like people like I mean to say there are some people now that like actually come to my eyes to be like and like get excited, like I saw you on the on YouTube on the video. And I’m like, yeah, like it’s a little weird. We don’t have that many followers or anything like, but it’s it always, Michael Renfro 13:50 you know, they don’t they don’t look at your number of followers, they just look at the fact that they saw you on their TV or on their, you know, whatever their their means of media watching is and that just means it gives you it’s really funny. I love live stuff. Because it gives you a different credibility when you have that engagement. And even if it’s just one person that’s asking you questions, you get to answer questions, and people feel like oh, well, you know, I’ve seen it. It really does work. That’s cool. I didn’t know that you. And I apologize. I probably should have but I didn’t know that you’d gone to all those live things. That’s really cool. Amanda Shaffer 14:25 Oh no worries. Yeah. I tried to do at least once a week. But yeah, I mean, COVID pushed us in that direction. Because, you know, for the first time in a long time that there was kind of a lull? Well, you know, because we’re in New York in March of 2020. We had I moved my entire office home, like we couldn’t even come even though I don’t work with other people. If I wasn’t an essential employee, everyone, we went home and then, you know, money dried up everywhere. So I’m like, Well, what am I going to do to bring a business and that’s, that’s when you know I started networking more online with colleagues and, you know, looking into things. And I’m like, well, I already have the Facebook page, I have the Instagram I had, I was like, I’ve already started doing some posting, but they were just videos like, not non live videos. I was like, I never all those, I don’t have time to edit videos, and I don’t really know how to edit video. So even my videos were just done in one shot, right? So I’m like, if I’m doing that, I’m just gonna go live. Yeah. And our lives were the, you know, the big thing. And yeah, that’s really been what has has had us come out of COVID doing better than ever, I’m happy to say, Michael Renfro 15:41 Well, it’s funny, the, you know, we do this podcast and one of the people that I spoke to, about a year and a half ago, and with the other one that we did, we did, we went live, I don’t know that we’re gonna be doing it with this, I hope we do in the future. But I’ll tell you, the one thing with live is it’s just, you get better engagement, and you get a quicker following ship. Simply because more people now are going in and seeing they want to see what’s live, they’d rather have that engagement and a sense of majority, right? Obviously, not everybody, but the majority of folks now are going to the live, you know, wherever you are, whether it’s YouTube, or, or what was the other one that you said you did? Facebook and Facebook, right? You know, you can go to the place and see who’s broadcasting live. There’s a section for everybody. And yeah, quite frankly, I think it’s awesome. I, I know that. All I can tell you is it’s something I’ll be doing privately on my own, not associated with Gladiator. And Adam knows that. But it’s time it’s coming down the road. It’s been that way. So what are a few? You know, we’re doing this stuff, what’s some of your daily rituals that you do like, and what I mean by that is, what do you find, in concerns to a daily ritual, which one is the most important that you feel like you need to do? Right? And then what’s some of the other typical ones that you that you almost always do? Amanda Shaffer 17:04 if you will, most important is working out. I go nuts if I don’t work out, and it helps me blow off steam and just keep my mind distress. I used to not, you know, I used to go to Subway every day before COVID. So you can be five minutes late. It’s there’s no train coming. You know, they just come constantly. Now I take the ferry, which is safer and always on time, but they’re set time. So now I leave every day, the same day. And that’s kind of changed. So I used to get here at 930. Now I get here at 730. But then I’m done by 330. I tried to be I tried to be done. But the point is, that was a thing that has changed. Oh, yeah. And then, um, other than that, I there’s not too many daily things I do just trying to, you know, the first thing I do is just try to get to all my emails, get that done. And then you know, I usually already have something I need to do and get DME as much like little things before our meeting start, which are usually around the earliest would be around 930. Gotcha. So then they’re usually back to back or the phone’s ringing. And then it’s hard to get. Yeah, I know that work done where you have to think a lot. Michael Renfro 18:39 Oh, yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s hard. Especially if you have like I had today I had a meeting that ended up scheduling with only 15 minutes between and I don’t always get to end my meetings right on time. So I ended up ending it and I looked and I was like I had nine minutes. Oh, please, that’s not my normal routine of what I’m able to do. So I completely get it, especially if you get taken out of your routine. I’ll tell you, I noticed that on the days that like because I think everybody has their routine or I think most successful people when they put that I think most successful people have a routine. And most successful people also know though that sometimes your routine is gonna get interrupted and you have to be able to, you know, go with the flow, if you will, it still doesn’t make it necessarily easy on those days when I didn’t know you know, get all those things that I like I have my certain ones, you know, kind of like I said that I have to do and then other ones can come or go if you will, but yeah, I 100% understand that but that way. So what do most people know? Or what do most people not know excuse me about you and concerns to maybe a strange habit or an odd hobby or Amanda Shaffer 19:50 a cork or something like that. Um, I don’t know if these are odd but I I am a certified scuba diver. I absolutely love scuba diving. In fact, I love all sports. I’m going to a game today. My the I am mom from the Bronx, my family’s from the Bronx. I was, I was born in the Bronx, raised in the suburbs, my parents born and raised in the Michael Renfro 20:21 Bronx, so you’re totally teasing. Totally, it’s easy. Amanda Shaffer 20:30 So, I mean, I, I played softball, I place off on the weekends with my alumni team from college. It’s my absolute favorite thing to do. And I also my other thing, that is I can’t live I would say this more I can’t live without then is like a weird word coffee is dogs, I have two dogs. And I, they’re, they’re my worlds. And they just make me happy. All dogs make me happy. We had a service dog for a while here till and my, my partner was bringing in his dog. And then COVID hit and then the dog didn’t want to come to work. But she was so good when she came. So I like to, oh, this is actually a weird quirk related to the dogs. One thing I like to do with clients, and again, it’s changed a little because it COVID We’re not as much in person. But you know, when I go to greencard interviews, or I’m in court with stuff with clients, and we’re waiting, I like to show them like cute dog things to like, make them smile and calm down a little. And I think it helps. Yeah, because everyone’s always nervous no matter what. So I’d rather if I’m scrolling through things, that’s what I’d rather look at. So I’m just sitting there with them. They’ll be like, you’ll look at my dog and like, Look at this cute little meme of a dog and then like they do, you know, a lot of them do relax a little. Michael Renfro 21:59 No, that, again, it makes total sense. But you’re talking to a dog lover. I’ve not known life without a dog except for. There’s times like this last one. We lost a family dog. And we waited. I want to say about five months before we we got some new ones only because we wanted to have we didn’t want to do it right away. In the sense of the mourning time. You know, he had been with us for about 12 years. So yes, very close. And he was a little guy that, you know, those little ones. They they live a long time and we ended up saving him at around three years old. So Amanda Shaffer 22:34 I have my little one I’ve had since 10 weeks and she’s gonna be 14. Oh my goodness. Wow. Michael Renfro 22:44 Yeah, the two that I have right now are year. Exactly. A year and a half. I think right now. No. Yes. A year and a half because they were born in December. We got them when they were two months old. Brother and sister. And Neo and Trinity funny. Yeah, no, but big matrix bands. But they’re awesome. They we thought they were going to be a little dogs. And they are both right around 70. So we now have two pretty big no, no far from little, but they were when you save a dog you take that chance, you know? And they were? Unknown Speaker 23:16 Of course, yeah. But anyway. Michael Renfro 23:20 So where are you from? And what was it like growing up there? I know you said you I think you’ve been in New York your whole life. Right? So the Bronx. Yeah. Amanda Shaffer 23:29 I’m from Rockland County, New York, which is borders. Westchester, New Jersey. So about 45 minutes outside the city. That’s where I grew up. Then I went to college in Michigan and law school in Connecticut, and then back to New York City. Michael Renfro 23:46 That’s all pretty close, though. For the most part, right? That’s not those other ones. I mean, you’re, you’re still that’s all northeast. Amanda Shaffer 23:53 Except for Michigan. But Michael Renfro 23:54 well, yeah, I guess Michigan isn’t really northeast, but it’s Northern Territory. I guess I should say that. That’s right. I wasn’t thinking about it. So where were we What did you already told me this? Because you you said you wanted to be an attorney your entire life. So what was the biggest inspiration then and you actually becoming an attorney unmask that? Amanda Shaffer 24:16 Well, I mean, I would say I’m a person that really, really inspired me. As Ruth Bader Ginsburg RBG. A picture of her in my office. she rest in peace. Yes. I actually met her when I was in college. So I did a program called Michigan and Washington was a joint program with University of Michigan, you Cal Berkeley, and UPenn and we went, it was like our professors and then we had to intern and take classes. And they are like one of our professors was friends with RBG. So we went to the Supreme Court. And this is a funny story at the fact that I’m a lawyer now is a new then I was wanted to be a lawyer. I almost got kicked out of the Supreme Court. No, because I, I almost fell asleep. Like I was like, I was like, drifting off. And like, you know, security, whoever came over, and they’re like, if you if you fall, if you fall asleep again, I’m leaving. And I was like, okay, i All I remember is it was a case of assault case, bow firearms, and they were arguing over one word, one word. And I mean, now that makes complete sense. To me, that’s half of what I do is argue over one word. But after I didn’t get kicked out, we then got to go in the back and our class, which was like 30 people, we got to sit with RBG and ask her questions. And like, I’ve met famous people before, like, I mean, I’ve met like, Brit, like, Pete, like A listers, like before. I’m not, trust me, not that many, like randomly, like, Jessica Biel was on my cruise once, for example. But I’ve never been more nervous. And when I met RBG, she’s your idol. And she’s so little and cute. And like, I’m not a huge person. And she’s taller than me. And I got to ask her a question. I don’t remember the question. I know, it was about what I was Michael Renfro 26:36 gonna ask you, I was gonna ask you, if you remember the question, Amanda Shaffer 26:38 it was something about how it was about being a woman because I knew a lot about her background. And she was just so gracious, so sweet and humble. And, you know, I mean, knowing that in the face of of all, he’s done. I mean, if you want to know what I really wanted to be when I grew up, besides a lawyer with a lawyer, but I wanted to be on the Supreme Court, of course, that was my ultimate goal. I’m not gonna I’m not on that trajectory. But, um, I just idolized her and what she did for, you know, for women, for for the, for the legal profession in general. And, you know, I was, you know, heartbroken when we lost her, but, you know, her left, and what’s gone on with her legacy this past couple days. But other than that, you know, her legacy doesn’t move on. And, you know, especially in people like me who, you know, she fought through a lot worse, so we just got to keep fighting. And, and that’s what we’re gonna do. Michael Renfro 27:41 Yeah, I can only say, I Amanda Shaffer 27:44 agree. I’ll leave it at that. Good answer. Michael Renfro 27:51 Do you? Would that also be I know, it’s not necessarily a direct colleague, but would that be the one colleague that you most respect in your industry, I mean, she really does fall in that it’s, she’s a justice. Amanda Shaffer 28:03 She’s definitely not a colleague, out of college, but I mean, she would be she would be someone I put up there. I do have, I have two people I’ve worked with on cases that come to mind. One, one is Stephanie Pearl, and Anna shizzle. Both of them were for nonprofits, for attorneys for the children. So when I do family law, I represent either the mother or the father, if there’s a child involved. And then if there’s a child involved or custody dispute, or domestic violence or anything, then there needs to be an attorney for the child and the court will appoint an attorney, and the Supreme Court and the family court. And both appointed attorneys, and depending on, you know, the financial abilities of the parties, they may be free counsel, they may be partially paid private, partially paid for, but they they’re appointed attorneys, so they’re not they’re getting paid by the organization, not by the clients, and they represent children. And I’m with Stephanie, I, I’ve actually known her before she was pregnant, have a baby. This case went on the whole time. And then she got pregnant again had another baby. So I’ve known her like through two babies for like six years because this case went on forever. But you know, her people who work in those organizations tend to be overworked. And it can be very difficult and underpaid. And her dedication and now I’ll talk about Anna second has always inspired me because she really cared about the kids she was working for. And I’ve had children’s attorneys before where like they won’t even contact the kid. And it can be really frustrating and and hard to do your case. But she worked, you know, worked with me so carefully. We became friends. And and I’m on a case with right now that’s going on just as the really tough fact pattern like one of those hard to hear fact patterns. And she has gone above and beyond, to really help me figure out the best way to approach the case, because of how sensitive these issues are. And these are issues that she deals with. I do too, but hurt more, because of where she works. He only gets involved when there’s it, like an issue between the parents that and the kid. So I might be involved in plenty of cases where there’s no kids, which is, in my opinion is like a lot emotionally easier. Oh, Michael Renfro 30:44 yeah, absolutely, absolutely. 100%. Amanda Shaffer 30:47 So for both of them, and I know both of them are doing this for years are they’re super experience, they work so hard. And you know, there are plenty that will we’ll just kind of do the bare minimum, but they go above and beyond. And it makes as as an attorney on the case, whether they’re on my side or not, or on my client side or not. It doesn’t it’s it makes it easier for me to do my job. And I appreciate that. And it also makes me appreciate, you know what I’m doing, like, they don’t pick their cases, I get to pick my cases. So you know, I give a lot of props to them and everyone that they work with for making it possible for us to do our job. Michael Renfro 31:31 I just in a nutshell, what I hear that’s incredible about both of them is they they play the cards they’re dealt, regardless of what those cards are number one, and they put as much passion and as much into it as if they were getting paid from the highest client, which is something that you don’t find in everybody because that also means a third point, both of these these attorneys are or people I’m assuming they’re attorneys. But both of these people are getting highly emotionally involved, just because there’s almost no way to put that much into it and not become somewhat attached on some level. I just I just know that from experience like you can only when you see the ones that don’t do it, it’s because that’s their way of maintaining that separation, because they know if they get too close or if they do too much. They get close, right? Amanda Shaffer 32:19 Yeah. And I was I always say I’m, I’m kind of grateful I don’t get domain tickets. Because it Michael Renfro 32:28 keeps you tired. When you can fight. I’ll say that some people have the ability to fight with a lot of emotion behind them right and still put up a good flight. They don’t lose their thoughts. me emotionally. If I get angry. I I’m very irrational, right? If I get hurt, which is the base for anger, I get very irrational and I think a lot of people are, are the same way. And so if you get emotionally attached, and then somebody in the case, you know takes you off, right? It can it can make it very difficult. I’ve seen it with some attorneys who still kind of show there. I’m sure you’ve seen it. There are a few attorneys that show their emotions. And there’s some attorneys have a much better job at hiding. Amanda Shaffer 33:09 Yeah, and, and the effect that you have, you know, for me, it’s more of an issue of taking it home. Michael Renfro 33:16 wiping your feet is what I used to call it wiping your feet at the end of the day when you leave the office and leaving it there. Amanda Shaffer 33:21 And it makes it much harder when when you’re dealing with children for sure. Michael Renfro 33:25 Oh, yes, I am a father of five so and the first two came from someone I’m not married to now so you can imagine I have a little bit of experience with actually dealt with three attorneys and concerns to my case against her with custody three different attorneys over a seven year period and let’s just say 25k At a minimum, and we’ll move on. So what’s your favorite podcast? Amanda Shaffer 33:51 My favorite? Um, okay, I really like Serial. Serial. Michael Renfro 33:56 Serial, right? I’m hearing Amanda Shaffer 33:59 S E R I A L. First season. I wish didn’t drop off after that. I love the Always Sunny in Philadelphia Podcast. Oh, yes. Listen, the most recent episode today. Um, I was listening to Crime Junkie and Court Junkie a lot during the pandemic. Um, I I’ve listened to Dr. Death I liked a lot of the crime ones but I’m like, then I get to like morbid. So I have Michael Renfro 34:30 to kind of break away to go back to a sunny side right? Amanda Shaffer 34:33 Yeah, I mean the the Always Sunny is that’s actually a video one now too. It’s I mean, I love the show. So the podcast talks about the show and Office Ladies which they talk about the office. It’s two actresses. So those are the pretty much the ones that I’ve been listening to lately, Michael Renfro 34:55 as did you ever watch Seinfeld? Did you enjoy this cycle? Have you say that but you’d be surprised some of the reactions I’ve got when I asked. I checked him out recently. I don’t know that the others are doing anything like this because I know, Jerry does his car thing with the interviews on Netflix. But Jason Alexander, he was always actually to me, I just don’t say this to anybody. But I thought he was the absolute best actor out of the four. He’s great. And his podcast is, you would probably based on what you just told me, you would probably enjoy, you should check out maybe one or two votes and say, Yeah, I can’t remember. But I know that if he’s not doing I thought he was doing his own is what I found. But I also know he does a lot. He’ll go out there and he loves being a guest. So you can almost find him on somebody else’s podcast where he’s more fun when he’s a guest, I think than when he’s doing his own, which you can imagine. But now that you asked, I’m gonna do my do my due diligence and try to find the name of it because I thought that he had his own. And I know I listened to something. I was like this guy. So he was always such a great actor, but he’s also just a very, he feels very real to me, but that way like, he feels like a real Earth kind of guy. Amanda Shaffer 36:06 Yeah, and that’s why oh, and I like Parks and Recollection, which is about Parks Michael Renfro 36:10 and Rec. I love that show. Sorry. Love that. Yeah, Amanda Shaffer 36:13 no, those are I mean, I never would have thought until recently because people kept telling me to what to listen to Always Sunny podcast that I would want to watch or listen, listen to a podcast about shows I like. But it actually is really fast. A lot of fun. So yeah, and I mean, obviously the people who are doing it, they’re all you know, funny people and charismatic. So it’s enjoyable, listen to but yeah, and anything like that. I’d love like, I’d love a South Park podcast. Michael Renfro 36:44 I think what’s really cool to me, I grew up, you know, I’m a little bit older than you. I’m 50. So I was around during laser discs when they were on. And it was laser discs that first introduced commentaries for film. And to me, I think that’s nothing more than what these podcasters are doing now. But rather than doing it while watching their show, they just have a cat, you know, have an episode of podcast and talk about it because you get to find out what I always loved about those things. And I’m assuming this is some of it. But they tell you those little secrets like yeah, man, I just got hit in the face with something like right before I did that scene it was so you know, like, and you’re like, wow, and you came out and just did that or you hear something like I remember watching the one for usual suspects. This is always one that blew me away. They filmed that entire movie in 35 days. And that was one of the greatest movies that we’ve ever seen as far as that genre. And I was like 35 days. Wow. And the most expensive thing they used in it was a puppet. They didn’t even they barely used it. Right. So it’s those little facts I imagine that are the same kind of stool. Amanda Shaffer 37:43 Yeah, and all I know is sunny. And one of the things I always assumed that apparently a lot of fans were that they sometimes drank when they acted because they acted. Michael Renfro 37:54 They were drunk a lot. They did so well at acting. Amanda Shaffer 37:56 So like but they were always sober. And they’re like no, seriously and then they actually did a podcast where they trick but it but it made me appreciate their acting even more. Oh, yeah. Oh, are they do like, that’s amazing. So yeah, it is little things like that for sure. Michael Renfro 38:14 That’s awesome. That’s awesome. Last question, and then we’ll we’ll leave Shall we go in your daily grind and in the in the world that you’re in. And I’m assuming one of these may even be directly related to immigration, just because that’s half of your business. So but what is your favorite tool or and or software that you use to get through the day that that really helps you the most? Amanda Shaffer 38:37 Ah, um, I well, I could probably give you two one would be actually one I created which was it’s, it’s so when you do immigration, you have to fill out a lot of forms and they have a lot of repeating information, which means there’s a lot of room for mistakes and also if you download the form from the government website, they are really annoying to fill out they’re just not well done. So I had like and this acted before the website so I’ve had these for a while I created questionnaires that kind of covered like for different types of cases and then you just fill that out once and and simplified it so that it’s not confusing for people and then I have I can I made all the form fields on the forms or redid all the forms and then it automatically fills in the form that’s awesome now so what used to take me an hour to do takes me 15 minutes to do and I Michael Renfro 39:39 worry about the mistakes because it’s it’s all based on the fact there is a mistake you just change it in the beginning and refill it out. And you’re Amanda Shaffer 39:46 because I’m really bad at switching letters and numbers and things Michael Renfro 39:50 right here yeah, yeah. Amanda Shaffer 39:52 I I’ve never been diagnosed with pretty sure I am. Because I just read like the first and the last is the same Michael Renfro 39:59 thing. It’s It’s those middle ones or it’s either the middle or the outside, depending on I swear, it seems like that’s a sign for me. I swear, it seems like it depends on the mood that I’m in whether I end up switching inner letters or outer letters, or sometimes I smash words, and I say, the first half of one word with the second half of another word. Again, like you have never been diagnosed, but I am positive that I am because it just Yeah. Amanda Shaffer 40:24 times i. But anyways, so yeah, that really helps. And then the other thing would be I use Yeah, that’s how I do all my marketing my posts, and you know, all my graphics from from there, that’s $12 you can spend a month it really is. I’ve learned to stop first ever get I got frustrated, because you’re so much I learned to stop, like trying to change things. And no, these are professionally made templates, just, you know, tweak them a little bit. And you’re done and go so. So that’s really been a huge help for me, because before I was I whenever I was just creating things, I don’t even remember Oh, in like in like PowerPoint, you know, like I was like, I’d have to find things all over the internet that weren’t like in the public domain for Michael Renfro 41:18 clips of what he called clipart here or an image here. And it has to be public domain or it has to be it has to be transparent background, like, Oh, God, this doesn’t work. That’s, Amanda Shaffer 41:29 yeah, that that changed the game for me when I came to Michael Renfro 41:33 see the did you see the article that they had, there was an article on them about three or four within the last three or four months, because they are doing really well I believe, if I’m not mistaken, a female is the one that owns and operates and started and founded that company. So it was also you know, it was about the fact that here’s a female because there’s been a few females lately that have really hit big with some big pieces of of sass or even platforms. Right. And I mean, hers is one of the most I love it. I literally work on that every single day for both work and personal projects just because I can I’ve shown stuff to people that I did that with by the way, just give me an idea. People people doubt it. I’m like, Okay, check out this and they’re like, Dude, that’s hot. How much did you pay for that? And I was like, I did that. Yeah, I did that myself. Like and it’s amazing piece of software. I can’t believe you name that because I would have never but I should have because you said the beginning you do marketing. So it’s it is a great marketing tool, and everything’s pre done. Well listen, I really appreciate your time. Amanda Shaffer, thank you so much for joining us today. If you want to learn more about gladiator or if you would like to be a guest on 15 minutes, share your voice. Please reach out to me directly. My email is Michael M I C H A E L That’s Alpha echo Lima. @gladiatorlawmarketing. All three words are spelled standard. I hate the word normal as well. With that said, again, thank you so much for being here. Have a wonderful day, the on next episode. Outro 43:11 Thanks for listening to 15 Minutes, be sure to subscribe and we’ll see you next time.


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