The Humane Divorce: A Veteran Attorney’s Tale From the Courtroom With James Lea

July 17, 2024 | Written by Gladiator Law Marketing

James W. Lea III is the Senior Managing Partner at The Lea/Schultz Law Firm, attorneys who specialize in handling a variety of domestic and family law issues, including high-asset and complex divorces and those involving alimony, child support, child custody, and visitation issues. For over four decades, James has played a pivotal role in shaping family law policy in North Carolina, contributing to 15 out of 100 seminal cases recognized by the North Carolina Bar Association. His reputation is underlined by his consistent rating as an “A” lawyer by Martindale-Hubbell since 1996. For more than 14 years, he has been recognized by US News and World Report as one of the top lawyers and law firms in America. He and his partner have also been acknowledged as Legal Elites in family law by NC Business Magazine.

Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn:

[2:11] James Lea shares how and when he knew he wanted to be an attorney
[2:47] The crucial role of psychology in a family law practice
[3:51] James talks about his upcoming book, The Humane Divorce, and how it serves as a guide through the legal process
[6:33] How a diversified law practice can evolve to specialize in family law
[8:42] Key qualities that make an effective trial lawyer
[10:21] The strategic value of building courtroom connections
[13:22] How James navigates complex and groundbreaking legal cases
[17:11] Balancing clients’ emotional journeys with legal outcomes
[24:29] The value of establishing relationships within the legal community

In this episode…

Divorce is often described as one of life’s most painful experiences, but can it be approached in a way that minimizes harm and fosters understanding? How can the complex, emotionally charged process be navigated with compassion and efficiency? According to James Lea, a seasoned attorney with over 40 years of experience in family law, the key to a humane divorce lies in balancing legal expertise with empathy and psychological insight. He highlights that understanding the mental health issues often present in divorce cases is crucial for effective legal representation. James emphasizes the importance of thorough preparation, clear communication, and maintaining a calm demeanor to support clients throughout the tumultuous process. His experience with landmark cases and his creative approach to applying the law have positioned him as a leading figure in shaping family law in North Carolina. In this episode of 15 Minutes, host Chad Franzen sits down with James Lea, Senior Managing Partner at The Lea/Schultz Law Firm, to discuss the concept of a humane divorce. They explore James’ innovative strategies in the courtroom, his personal experiences that inform his professional approach, and his advice for aspiring family lawyers.

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Special Mentions

Quotable Moments:

“Most people are depressed when they come in. You need the psychological background in addition to business background when dealing with divorces.”
“It’s not something I ever just envisioned I would do, but I got sort of desperate and went to law school.”
“I’m completely prepared when I walk in there… That’s where I go, and it’s really my calm space.”
“Establish the rights of a separated gay couple… to have parental rights to her child.”
“Treat your clients with as much respect as you can until they disrespect you, and then you gotta cut it off.”

Action Steps:

Prioritize emotional intelligence: Develop empathy and understanding of clients’ emotional states to provide better guidance and support.
Embrace continual learning: Stay humble and seek knowledge and advice from experienced professionals in your field. The willingness to continue learning and ask questions is crucial to success and specialization in family law.
Build strong courtroom relationships: Establish rapport with legal personnel and always maintain professionalism. Connecting with judges, clerks, and bailiffs reinforces credibility and smoothens legal proceedings.
Promote fair practice: Engage in honest and ethical interactions with opposing counsel, even when it’s tempting to capitalize on their mistakes. Fairness with other attorneys leads to mutual respect and improves the integrity of the judicial process.
Manage client expectations: Communicate clearly about possible legal outcomes to maintain a realistic perspective. Lawyers can help clients navigate their cases with a balanced mindset by being straightforward about the legal process and potential results.

Sponsor for this episode…

This episode is brought to you by Gladiator Law Marketing, where we deliver tailor-made services to help you accomplish your objectives and maximize your growth potential. To have a successful marketing campaign and make sure you’re getting the best ROI, your firm needs to have a better website and better content. At Gladiator Law Marketing, we use artificial intelligence, machine learning, and decades of experience to outperform the competition. To learn more, go to gladiatorlawmarketing.com or schedule a free marketing consultation. You can also send an email to adam@gladiatorlawmarketing.com.

Episode Transcript

Intro 0:01 You’re listening to 15 Minutes where we feature community leaders sharing what the rest of us should know but likely don’t. Chad Franzen 0:12 Hi. Chad Franzen, here one of the hosts of Share Your Voice, where we talk with top notch law firms and lawyers about what it takes to grow a successful law practice. This episode is brought to you by Gladiator Law Marketing, delivering tailor made services to help you accomplish your objectives and maximize your growth potential to have a successful marketing campaign and make sure you’re getting the best ROI your firm needs to have a better website and better content. Gladiator Law Marketing uses artificial intelligence, machine learning and decades of experience to outperform the competition to learn more. Go to gladiatorlawmarketing.com, where you can schedule a free marketing consultation. My guest today is James W. Lea III who serves as managing partner at The Lea/Schultz Law Firm. He’s a seasoned attorney with over 40 years of experience, specializing in family law. Throughout his career, Mr. Lea has been deeply involved in shaping family law policy in North Carolina. He has served on influential committees within the North Carolina Bar Association, including the Family Council and the Committee on Mediation and Arbitration recognizes preeminence by Martindale Hubbell since 1996 Mr. Lea’s experience extends to landmark cases that have significantly impacted family law in North Carolina. Notably, he has been involved in 15 out of 100 cases deemed most important by the North Carolina Bar Association, which demonstrates his influential role in shaping legal precedents. He’s also known for his philanthropic efforts, including the establishment of a scholarship at Cape Fear Community College. In addition to his professional and community commitments, Mr. Lea enjoys staying active through his passion for tennis, where he recently achieved success as the winner of the USTA over 55 state championship. It’s great to talk to you today. How are you? James Lea 1:56 Good. How are you? Chad Franzen 1:58 Great. Thanks so much for your time today. Really appreciate it. Hey, first question for you, how, and if you can think back, how and when did you know that you wanted to become an attorney? James Lea 2:11 Boy, that’s a tough question. I’d say I didn’t until I got out of law school, sort of by default. It’s not something I ever just envisioned I would do but I got sort of desperate and went to law school after, uh, getting a psychology degree from Carolina, North Carolina, I don’t work in any year, and figured out I need to do something. So by the time I got to my third year, I realized that this is the right place for me. So it’s not a lifetime. It did become one. Chad Franzen 2:41 Wow. So has the psychology degree helped you at all in the course of the legal the legal? James Lea 2:47 Yeah, yeah, tremendously. Because many of the people that come in here, either my side of the table or the other side, are dealing with psychological problems. I’ve written a book called it’s going to be published, called The Humane Divorce, and I talk about this aspect of it in this book, because most people are depressed when they come in. Obviously, there’s a lot of anxiety disorders that come in, and then we get down to some people are bipolar, narcissism is off the charts these days, or being brought up as an issue in a case, you know, sociopathy, it’s just good to have that kind of background in addition to my business background when I’m dealing with divorces, so I can sort of spot where there are issues that are mental health issues in the case pretty relevant. Chad Franzen 3:41 So the book is called The Humane Divorce. Can you? Can you tell us a little bit more about it? What, what inspired the book, and what? What are some of the maybe key takeaways? James Lea 3:51 Well, the book is more of a sort of a guide through the process. A lot of books are written about, this is a law. This is this. This is that, but I decided to write about and I’m done in conjunction with a a business appraiser that I work with, because we do a lot of I am divorces and custody and things like that, but we deal with the valuation of closely held corporations. So the book is basically a guide that you’re going through a divorce pick up and read to help you through the process. Those chapters about how to choose a divorce lawyer, how to be a good client, what the judges are like behind the scenes, what the courthouse is like behind the scenes, I talk a little bit, well, quite a bit about the legal part of it, because laws are different state to state, but it’s basically how to book about everybody that’s picked it up and read it and said, Wow, I didn’t know this. Or, Wow, I didn’t know that. And they know more about what they’re dealing with as they go through divorce process. So it’s a it’s a guy more than anything else. Chad Franzen 4:57 I know you are happily married. Is it? How difficult is it to kind of separate your I mean, I’m sure in some respects, like the concept of divorce may be heartbreaking to somebody who’s happily married. How difficult is it to kind of separate maybe the emotion of the divorce and helping your clients? James Lea 5:16 Here’s the unique thing about my situation, because I my prologue is starts with a divorce, divorce lawyer as a chapter. So I was married to 33 years, and my wife, ex wife, and I went through a separation, and I’ve been through the process myself. I met my second wife, and hopefully, not, hopefully my last wife, about two years after my wife and I separated, my first wife and I separated, and we’ve been together ever since, since we met for the last 10 years. So I’ve been through both. I’ve been there with a happy marriage and I’ve been there with a happy marriage again. It turned into a non happy marriage for both of us. And I know I went through the process myself, and I think both she, she and I talked about my wife, and I probably handled it pretty good. I knew the ins and outs. I called up my divorce lawyer, and I said, don’t, don’t call me till I call you, because I know you’re going to build the hell out. So here’s your retainer. I’ll get in touch with what I need. So I have a big perspective on everything. Chad Franzen 6:23 Yeah, yeah. It’s, it sounds like it What inspired you to specialize in family law, and, you know, devote four decades to the field? James Lea 6:33 Well, when I first started, I went and worked for the attorney general’s office here in this state for a year, and then that was boring, and I got invited to come down and go to private practice in 1981 with a guy went to law school with. And as time went on, at the beginning, we were did everything. I mean, I probably I tried at least 50 to 100 jury trials. We did murder cases, we did criminal law. We did everything, civil litigation. I still do quite a bit of civil litigation, but I became very comfortable in the courtroom and pretty good in the courtroom. That’s where why we’re in Best Lawyers in America, although the things you’ve read about Super Lawyers, that kind of stuff. And so over the years, I just sort of started picking up more and more domestic cases, and I educated myself about it primarily by going and taking courses even CW and business valuation, and learning how to, you know how to value a business on my own, because I get a lot of clients that come in here that are in small, closely held corporations that are happen to be worth a lot of money, and I’m traded on the, you know, the Dow or anything, but they are big companies, so over the years, I just evolved into it. Everything in any part of life is reputation. So obviously I probably hated by half the town, probably hated by half my clients, but I still, and my word of mouth, basically, I don’t advertise very much, and just built and built and built. And I’m probably, probably right now, I would say the best known Forest lawyer in southeastern North Carolina. I would, I would say, I hate sound like I’m bragging, because I’m terrible at everything else I ask my wife, but this is the one thing I can do pretty well. Chad Franzen 8:28 So what do you think it is? It kicks you so effective in the courtroom? Is it your ability to relate to the jury or to have them to relate with you? Or is it your preparedness, your ability to state an argument, all of the above? James Lea 8:42 All of the above. I mean, preparedness is key. I mean, the we tried one on Monday and Tuesday this week, we had two notebooks filled with filled with exhibits. Probably I had to introduce about 110 exhibits. I did that two hours, and I get to the point I don’t waste time. I’m completely prepared when I walk in there. I’m very, very comfortable in courtroom, even though I have a thing called GAD, General Anxiety Disorder. I’ve had it for my entire life, and you would think it would affect me in the courtroom, but it’s exactly the opposite. That’s where I go, and it’s really my calm space. So I’m able to process a lot of be prepared, process a lot of information. I can be confrontational if I need to. I could be friendly if I need to. Sort of got a knack for cross examination, and I’ve definitely got an actor standing up, running my mouth, courtroom and but keeping it to the point so it’s a unique skill set of any trial lawyer. I mean, I’m one of 1000s of very good trial lawyers throughout this country, but it is a unique area, because the. Most lawyers do not like to go to court. Don’t like to be they just don’t. I mean, it’s just a lot of anxiety, a lot of pressure, and I thrive under that. You’ll most of the trial lawyers you’ll talk to will tell you the same thing. Chad Franzen 10:13 What have you found to be a key to your success, maybe in connecting with a jury. James Lea 10:21 Have eye contact, beginning with very friendly conversation, not alienating them by attacking somebody that doesn’t need to be attacked. Um, you know, just sensing the room, uh, having a friendly relationship with the judge, being lack of better word being a charm, charming southern guy. And that really works well with juries. I mean, it just does. You gotta have a rapport with them. They gotta like you. They don’t like you. They’re not gonna like your client. And so the whole thing, to me, is trying to make a connection with the people that are gonna render a verdict, whether it be a judge or a jury, Chad Franzen 11:06 Sure, sure. Yeah, I could. I mean, I could see how the charming southern guy thing, I could see how that, how that might work for you. You know, I mentioned you are involved in kind of 15 out of 100 landmark family law cases. Obviously, I don’t, we don’t need to have you tell us about all 15 of them or anything. But did you know going into maybe each of those, or that this was going to be like, if, if you were successful, that this was going to be kind of a big deal? James Lea 11:35 Yeah, I sort of did, because the equitable distribution act in North Carolina was enacted in 1980 so it was brand new, and I started practicing in domestic oil down here in 1981 i forever ago. So every case that came up over my entire career, I’ve had like 60 appeals, but there were so many cases that were cases of first impression on the statute, and I’m very creative, and if I did not like the way it came out, or I thought I need to make some law in this particular area, or whatever, I would appeal the cases in or get in the court of appeals, probably one of my most well known cases. It’s called Busman versus Gerald, which is back in 2010 it’s called all all the law schools. It’s when gay marriage was not legal in North Carolina, and it was a gay adoption case. You could not adopt unless you were a step parent at aka, married. So I sort of took a landmark case to the Supreme Court of North Carolina all the way up to there established the rights of a separated gay couple, the right of Miss Busman in that particular case, to add parental rights to her child, even though she had no marital status and was not the biological mother. And that’s a pretty big landmark case in this state, really, throughout the country, at that at the time, now that gay marriage is legal, it’s not as big a deal as it was back then, but it was back then for sure. Chad Franzen 13:11 Yeah. I mean, it’s the first the first one that it’s pretty historic, was that are cases like that quite complex. And how do you navigate those complexities. James Lea 13:22 Yeah, they’re complex, but you’ve got to look into you get in, you delve into the regular I mean, it’s not as complex as a like a business valuation case, because that’s complex that can really get into expert witnesses and all sorts of things. But I had to sort of take the existing law as it was, and apply it to this particular situation where nobody had any rights. It was a birth mother that was basically saying, I birthed this child. The adoption we tried to do is actually illegal, and at the time it was you have no rights. I’m not gonna let you ever see your child again. So that takes some creativity. Now I’ll never forget the first time we were in the courtroom at the trial level, it was jammed. It was jammed at the supreme court, the court appeals level, everybody took a side. In this case, you had the right wing, the left wing. I’m not I’m sort of moderate myself, but it was jammed at the very beginning. We had lambda civil rights Union on one side and served the groups on the other side. And I got up and argued for it. They were asking my client whether or not they wanted, she wanted a female attorney from Atlanta, somebody at school and, you know, and our judge schooled in those kind of cases. And after I made my argument, everybody sort of sat down and shut up, so to speak, because I went out of the courtroom, out of the courtroom. She said, I’m I’m not going anywhere, but right here, and I turned to them, I said, Who else do you want arguing for gay rights than a white heterosexual southern male in the South? Chad Franzen 14:59 Mm. It’s fascinating. Very nice. Perfect, perfect. Hey, I’m sure a lot of these cases, like that one, I’m sure in family law, they’re kind of filled with maybe highly charged emotions or high value assets, things like that. How do you kind of balance all that stuff, the legal and emotional aspects of handling those cases? James Lea 15:21 Well, I mean, I don’t know if you’re talking about how I handled it, I’m pretty calm. I’ve gotten over the years just with experience that helps a lot, having learned a lot. I mean, I’m 69 at this point, and I don’t have any plans to stop until maybe 10 years from now, whatever we’ll see I still enjoy it, as long as I enjoy it and I’m doing well at it, I’ll keep doing it. But number one, I’ve got to stay calm throughout this process, because if I don’t my clients dumb and I’ve got to calm them down, because if they get too excitable, or they get to start doing stupid things like texting nasty things back and forth the email, and they do it all the time. I got to say, You got to stop doing this. I tell them the truth from the very beginning. And I may sound like I’m a tough task master. I’m not, really. I get along with most of my clients. Some I don’t. Some you just can’t get along with but by and large, I communicate with them. They have my cell phone number, which is sort of rare for divorce attorney. They can call me all the time, which they do. I can. I pick it up. I work on Sundays. I talk to them on the weekend. It’s just happened to be an area law. You cannot just walk away from it completely, even on vacation, and let it all go, because it’s always somebody there for the crisis. So a big part of my job is not only being honest with them about the law, but keeping them calm, cool and collected through the process, which doesn’t always work, but I try. Chad Franzen 16:53 When somebody calls you and asks you to serve as their divorce attorney, and you know, you agree to serve them in that capacity. What’s kind of your goal, I guess, going in, going into that kind of case, is it to get the most from the get the most for the client or or something else. James Lea 17:11 Well, my goal is number one, and I talk about this in the book, is to get them through the process with their sanity. I start the the prelude to my book by saying divorce is a stunning and painful process. I thought stunning was a good word for it, because it really is. Besides having somebody die when you walk in especially long term marriage, when when you’re in that state, everybody will tell you it’s the worst part of your life. So number one, my goal is not to end up in court, even though I end up in court a lot, but I don’t want that for my clients. So it’s usually somebody is being too stubborn, and you got to go to court or they’re just crazy. And so my goal is to keep them out of court. Get prepared, get them through the process, get them to mediation, see if I can get it settled there. I’m always open to trying to resolve things. It’s not about gouging the other side. They may think it is, but in this state, it’s a 50/50 split of your assets. So it shouldn’t be as complicated as a lot of people make it, a lot of young attorneys now don’t really understand business valuation. They get numbers. They don’t really know about, you gotta, you gotta really know a lot about, you know, brokerage accounts and stocks and bonds and stock options. I’ve tried, in case you went to the Supreme Court, on the valuation of stock options. It gets complicated, but my goal is to try to get something that everybody can you’re not going to be completely happy, but you can be content with that. You can move on with your life. Chad Franzen 18:51 You know you’ve you’ve obviously had some landmark cases that you’ve been successful in. Can you share another, maybe one of your more memorable success experience in your legal career. It doesn’t even have to be a landmark case. It’s something that like, oh yeah, this comes to my mind every time somebody asked me about this. James Lea 19:09 I can share with you something funny, I guess behind the scenes. I’m not going to name the case. Figured out what, but it ended up being a landmark case. I thought it was landmark because of the business valuation part of it, but ended up being landmark because of the sex part of it. So I was in court getting ready to try a case. I overheard another attorney that had sort of a big mouth in town. I liked him, but he was talking about my client was the man, and the other client was a woman. Talked about her possibly having an affair, because another one of my ex clients that showed up on the front porch sort of beat up by his wife. I realized he was talking about my case. I went over and asked him who it was. I also knew who she was having the affair. Her with so when I was in the trial, I asked her that essentially, whether or not she cheated on her husband, and she was so shocked to hear it, she admitted it, and then the other attorney went crazy. Case was recessed. Make a long story short, we came back. She denied it. I had subpoena my ex client back in the court. I knew a lot about his characteristics. He was a ladies man, to say the least. So I had to go painstakingly through two episodes, one in a golf cart and one in a pool. Oh boy. And we got down to the pool episode, and it’s all written out in this it’s sort of embarrassing. It’s all out in this legal opinion. I mean, it’s a big case, and everybody reads and they teach it on school, this is how you prove somebody had sex. Because I’m asking the questions I finally got took a part of penetration, and he sort of denied it. He said the water was cold, and I won’t name his name, but I’ll just make up a name. I said, John, When have you ever been that close and not been able to penetrate somebody? And he said, Okay, I did. So that was it’s humorous, but it’s embarrassing. But one of those kind of I had to call out my own ex client. It was a mad at me for a little while, but then it got over. Chad Franzen 21:24 That’s, that’s quite a story. Hey, yeah, what I mentioned that you you established a scholarship at Cape Fear Community College. How did that come about? What impact do you hope that it will have? James Lea 21:38 Well, a long time ago, I was did everything in this town. I was on the Board of Trustees of the community college. I was a resident of all Wellington board. I raised money for the YMCA, Chairman of the Democratic Party. I mean, all sorts of things. So at that point, when I was on the trustees staff, I’ve just seen really what, how good the college was. I mean, it was just a great school. People that weren’t going straight into academics. Maybe they’re all sorts of fields. You can learn trades. And I just thought it was a great, great thing. And so I set up a scholarship so that each semester and it grows in value of the year. So it’s a very valuable scholarship now, but one student can come in, I pay for their tuition and books. Basically have this scholarship for a year, and I get the nicest notes from somebody every single year, which mean the world to me. I love that, that they have gotten out, they’re going to do this, they’re going to graduate and go do this. And that some I’ve stayed in touch with over the years. So that means a lot to me. That’s probably my biggest accomplishment. I would say. Chad Franzen 22:55 Yeah, that’s that’s awesome. You I mentioned you’re also successful in tennis. How do you kind of managed to stay active and balanced your, you know, a pretty prolific legal career, with your interests outside of work, such as tennis. James Lea 23:07 Well, I’ve played tennis since I was a child, you know. You know, it’s just something I’ve learned. I’m not that great at it. I started as a four or five. The State Championship they’re talking about is in the USTA League, and was a doubles group. But I play tennis just my salvation. I get that to play every Saturday morning. I’m a 40 and older, older team. This year, my captain just contacted me. We played matches throughout the year. I just but I just love it. It’s out there. I can’t do the things I used to do. I was a big football player, and then I played rugby at Carolina, and through about five years after that, was pretty good at Rugby, but you know, it sort of hurts when you get in your 60s and you’re running around, you can’t do those kind of things, so I’m lucky to have enough skill to get out there on the tennis court and have a good time, which I’m going to do tonight. Chad Franzen 24:09 Oh, very nice, very nice. What’s your primary strength? Your serve, your backhand, your return. James Lea 24:15 My serving my backhand. Chad Franzen 24:19 Okay, very good. Great. I have one more question for you, but first, just tell me how people can find out more information about you and about Lea/Schultz Law Firm. James Lea 24:29 Okay, we’re on the internet, all over the internet. You can look up our website Lea/Schultz in this lea/schultz, you’ll see a bevy of stuff, and you’ll see some negative stuff too. We got involved in a case couple of years got not a couple years ago, about 10 years ago, the guy on the other side went nuts and just went after us. I mean, every way, shape or form, by putting up a fake Facebook site. Stuff like that. So there’s, there’s stuff out there that you’ll see. You got to look at the big picture. I tell everybody in this book to look for, look for that rating in Martin Dell level. It does make a difference. And you don’t have to be a that’s 5% of the attorneys in our country are A rated, but if you’re a B rated, or even C rated, and you’re a younger lawyer, that’s okay, you probably have got a pretty good lawyer. So you do need to look at some of these publications. They do mean something. Martindale Hublin means something. Best Lawyers mean something silly name, but Super Lawyers mean something because you’re getting voted on by your peers and the judges, and so that’s the biggest honor you can get, really. I mean, when they’re acknowledging that, hey, this guy’s or this woman is pretty good at what they do, so besides that, I mean, we’re booming. And besides that, we just just word of mouth. I’ve been around the city so long, so just somebody will tell somebody. That’s the thing about practicing law, if you’re good at it and you do a good job for somebody, they’ll go tell somebody else. So I have people coming here all the time saying, I heard this, I heard that. I heard that. And as as you get older, it gets a little bit better, more respectful than it was a long time ago. Chad Franzen 26:21 Sure, I bet. Hey. Okay, last question for you, sure, if you knew a kind of a young aspiring family lawyer who wanted to make a positive impact in the field, what advice would you offer that person? James Lea 26:35 Number one, ask questions of the experienced attorneys around you do not think you know everything. Just go in there and listen. And I did it all the time. I would walk up to experienced domestic attorneys and ask them a question. So do that. Don’t be so arrogant that you think you know everything, because you don’t, number two, establish relationships with the judges, the clerks, the bailiffs, everybody down at the courthouse. Be friendly to them. Do not be aloof. I know every say. I can walk in the courthouse and know the names of our bails by their first name, the clerks by their first name. Talk with them. I know the judges very well, you know, I just know so so form relationships. That’s number two. Number three, never. Ever do anything that try to screw the attorney on the other side. I’ll even warn attorneys, which you can do ethically now, when they’re getting ready to miss a deadline, or they’re getting ready to do that, this or that, or maybe make a bad mistake, I’ll warn them about it. I’ll go and say, Listen, you’re getting ready to do this. You need to do this. And I’ve always been that way. I’ve never defaulted anybody or anything like that. Attorneys may say, Oh, my God, I can’t believe but you know, sooner or later, is going to be you that makes a mistake, and you’re going to want a little grace coming back your way too. So you know, I made a bunch of mistakes in my career, and I’m glad that I had the ability to say, hey, remember when I did this for you? So it’s that’s important. So those relationships, and finally, treat your clients with as much respect as you can, until they disrespect you, and then you gotta cut it all. So many attorneys stay on, especially in domestic law, and just get abused by a person, a particular person, which are usually mentally ill, I would say, and they just hang in there because they’re scared of getting fired. Don’t be scared of getting fired. Don’t be scared to fire anybody. It’s okay. The world’s not going to end. Somebody will come into your door tomorrow. Person may go on there and that. Talk all about it. Most people don’t listen to it. So you gotta be brave and courageous through this process. But that’s my advice. Chad Franzen 28:58 Yeah, that is great advice. I was particularly intrigued by the relationship with the other attorney, and to kind of develop a good relationship with that person, even though you’re going against them, right? It has been fantastic to talk to you. I really appreciate it. Thanks for all of your insights and your stories. Very interesting, very entertaining. Thank you very much. James Lea 29:18 Thank you so much. Outro 29:20 Thanks for listening to 15 Minutes. Be sure to subscribe and we’ll see you next time.