Scott Blackman is a Partner at Booth Udall Fuller PLC, a boutique law firm in Tempe, Arizona, specializing in intellectual property law, including patents, trademarks, copyrights, trade secrets, and licensing. With a career spanning several decades in patent law, Scott is known for his ability to develop strategies that lead to desired outcomes in negotiations. His knack for conveying complex legal issues helps examiners, judges, and opposition parties understand and align with his perspective. His unique approach to law combines the pursuit of winning with the importance of educating all parties involved in the legal process. This technique has earned him a reputation where opponents offer him post-negotiation roles, seeking his expertise in mediation without the need for counsel.

Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn: 

• What drove Scott Blackman to pursue intellectual property law?
• The evolution of patent law over the last few decades
• Challenges when dealing with biotech and pharmaceutical patents
• The importance of setting up a reasonable relationship in negotiation
• How Scott’s teaching experience helps him as a lawyer
• What keeps Scott passionate and engaged after decades in the field?

In this episode…

When science meets law, the result can be revolutionary. But what’s the key to making a mark in the intricate field of intellectual property law with a foundation in science?

According to Scott Blackman, a seasoned intellectual property attorney, blending scientific precision with legal strategy is essential. He highlights the importance of clearly communicating complex scientific concepts in legal contexts, such as patent law, where misunderstanding can lead to missed opportunities or even failure. This approach not only aids in negotiations and legal arguments but also ensures that all parties involved, including judges and the opposition, fully grasp the technical details of a case.

In this episode of 15 Minutes, Chad Franzen is joined by Scott Blackman, Partner at Booth Udall Fuller PLC, to explore how integrating scientific knowledge with legal expertise leads to success in intellectual property. They discuss effective negotiation techniques, the benefits of a science background in law, and how to make complex patent issues accessible to everyone involved.

Resources mentioned in this episode:

• Chad Franzen on LinkedIn
• Gladiator Law Marketing  
• Scott Blackman on LinkedIn
• Booth Udall Fuller, PLC
• Rodney Fuller on LinkedIn

Sponsor for this episode…

This episode is brought to you by Gladiator Law Marketing, where we deliver tailor-made services to help you accomplish your objectives and maximize your growth potential. 

To have a successful marketing campaign and make sure you’re getting the best ROI, your firm needs to have a better website and better content. At Gladiator Law Marketing, we use artificial intelligence, machine learning, and decades of experience to outperform the competition. 

To learn more, go to gladiatorlawmarketing.com or schedule a free marketing consultation. You can also send an email to adam@gladiatorlawmarketing.com.

Episode Transcript

Intro  0:01 You’re listening to 15 Minutes, where we feature community leaders sharing what the rest of us should know but likely don’t. Chad Franzen  0:12 Hi. Chad Franzen here, one of the hosts of Share Your Voice where we talk with top notch law firms and lawyers about what it takes to grow a successful law practice. This episode is brought to you by Gladiator Law Marketing, delivering tailor made services to help you accomplish your objectives and maximize your growth potential. To have a successful marketing campaign and make sure you’re getting the best ROI, your firm needs to have a better website and better content. Gladiator Law Marketing uses artificial intelligence, machine learning and decades of experience to outperform the competition. To learn more, go to gladiatorlawmarketing.com where you can schedule a free marketing consultation. My guest today is Scott Blackman, a Partner at Booth Udall Fuller Intellectual Property Law. This firm specializes in various areas of intellectual property law, including patent, trade, secret trademark and copyright, Scott brings decades of experience in patent law to the table. Throughout his career, he has formulated strategies that have led to desirable outcomes and negotiations he’s demonstrated a knack for explaining complex issues, often, often assisting examiner’s judges or opposition parties and understanding and aligning with his perspectives. Additionally, Scott’s reputation in the field is evident from instances where his opponents have offered him rules, post negotiations and even times when opposing parties have sought his expertise for mediation in the absence of their own counsel. Notably, his approach to law emphasizes the importance of education throughout the entire legal process. Scott, thanks so much for joining me today. How are you? Scott Blackman  1:42  Thank you very much. I’m good. How are you? Chad Franzen  1:43 Good. Thank you.  What drove you to specialize in intellectual property law? Scott Blackman  1:49 Well, my education was always in science and math. And my extracurricular activities, were always in student government and working with lawyers and in politics. So I finally decided to try to combine the two I have a master’s in chemistry. I taught high school physics, and finally decided to try to combine that with law. Chad Franzen  2:09  So when you first had that first made that decision to go for to go for law, what did you kind of envision yourself? How did you envision yourself? You know, when you first made that, that choice? Like did you see yourself, you know, arguing dramatically in front of a judge? Or what did you think? Scott Blackman  2:28   I wasn’t sure where I would end up I know that I knew that there were several areas of law that were advantaged by having a science background, whether it’s patent law, nuclear energy, medical malpractice, etc, the environment, environmental, there’s there’s a lot of different options. My first summer as a as a law student, I worked at a law firm, small firm in Philadelphia at a patent firm. And I really enjoyed it. And I’m just kind of stuck with it ever since. Chad Franzen  2:57 How has the field of patent law changed over the decades you’ve been involved? Scott Blackman  3:01   Well, one of the things I enjoy most is the fact that we’re always learning new technologies as well as developments in the law. When I started in, I graduated in ’88. So when I started the Federal Circuit, which is effectively the Supreme Court of patent law, they were relatively new. So the courts the court has developed over time the law has developed. I clerked for one of the judges at the Federal Circuit, Judge Flager, who’s a senior senior judge now. And it’s been, it’s been really interesting. And I’ve been it’s been nice being a part of the development of the law and the court through the years. Chad Franzen  3:43  Are there some particular challenges that you face when dealing with biotech and pharmaceutical patents? Scott Blackman  3:51 Well, to me, the biggest challenge is that, in my mind, of course, is one of the one of this area’s most foreign to a lay judge or jury. So the biggest challenge, especially in those areas, I think, is being able to explain the technology in an understandable way to someone who has no science or technology background. Chad Franzen  4:16  I talked in your introduction about your, your success in negotiations and explaining complex issues. What kind of goes into what kind of goes into that when you when you, you know, approach a negotiation? What’s kind of your mindset and what goes into your strategy for you know, having the outcome that you’re looking for? Scott Blackman  4:37   Well, the first thing is most of the time in in negotiation. It’s not a it’s not a winner eat all winter kill off situation. Usually, there’s some ongoing contemplated relationship between the parties. What a lot of lawyers don’t keep in mind is that you really want to be able to set up I mean, the negotiation is usually the beginning. We’re a stage of the relationship, and you want to you want to set the parties up so that they’re dealing with each other in a reasonable way. They’re both happy to be in the relationship. So you really don’t want to, it’s not a scorched earth situation, you want to you want the situation, you want the result to be reasonable to both parties. Of course, you keep your clients interests at heart most but it’s in their interest to to start out on on a good in a good relationship with the other side. So I try to keep things reasonable. To my experience, one of the most important things in this and other areas is just being prepared, knowing the facts, knowing the the party’s desires, to the extent it’s there on the table already, and trying to figure it out. You know, my focus is basically trying to make the pie bigger, and share the pie, get both sides to enjoy as much of what is priority to them as possible, and that we try to keep everybody happy. Chad Franzen  5:57   So when you hear negotiations, you often hear you know, like, Okay, you start on the extreme end, and then they’ll start on the extreme end, and then there’s like a tug of war is, is that your experience? It sounds like it’s a little different from from your mindset? Scott Blackman  6:10   Well, that’s, that’s, I think, a very common experience. To me, I try to start out closer to the middle, it might be I do try to, you know, the first offer we put on the table typically leaves room for negotiation, but we want it to be reasonable. And, in fact, there’s been a couple of times where, you know, we’ve been, we’ve been negotiating contracts, for example, and the other side’s attorney says, Well, this is the way we think this point ought to be. And my response has been typically well, to my experience, this is what’s reasonable. And I’m not saying that your position is not, but can you help me understand how that’s reasonable to both parties. And on two different occasions, I’ve had the party on the other side, and negotiating with my client and me and keep and leaving their attorney out, have further discussions, because they realize both sides realize that we’re trying to reach a reasonable approach and a reasonable agreement that satisfies and helps both parties. Chad Franzen  7:11 I mentioned in your intro that education kind of plays a role for you. Can you explain that a little bit more? Scott Blackman  7:18 Yes, well, I went to Philadelphia College of Pharmacy and science later was known as University of Sciences in Philadelphia. Now it’s part of St. Joe’s, but I have two degrees in chemistry. I taught high school physics. My chemistry is from a pharmaceutical educational background. So it’s especially helpful in understanding the technology. For especially when you’re doing patent prosecution, it’s helpful to have enough of a science background to understand the technology and be able to work with the vendors. If you’re in a litigation situation, you’re typically part of a bigger team, and you’re working with experts. So your own education is not as important but but when you’re working with with patent applications, it helps to have some, at least a foundational background to be able to understand the technology and the adventurous comments, and, and desire. Chad Franzen  8:08   Did you have a law degree when he taught high school physics? Pardon? I’m sorry, did you have a law degree when he taught high school physics? Scott Blackman  8:16   Nine for high school physics before deciding to go to law school? Chad Franzen  8:20   What does your negotiation your does your burden and negotiation skills help you in dealing with high school students? Scott Blackman  8:29   Hmm. I think what helped most of my high school students was I was I was I was pretty young at the time. So I think we, we did for two reasons. I think it helped a lot. First off, we just got along well, I was able to relate to them fairly easily. But also because it was my you know, because I was teaching for the first time. It was a situation where I was learning just a little bit before they were learning. So I’ve always thought that, you know, you cannot be as good of a teacher without learning. The learning part of it is really helpful. I think once you’ve taught the same thing for five or 10 or 20 years, it probably gets a little bit harder. But when you’ve just learned it yourself recently, it helps because you’re you’re basically facing the same issues as as your students are now facing. Chad Franzen  9:17   Yeah, that makes sense. It has your kind of your teaching background helped you. As I mentioned, you kind of almost help examiner’s and judges understand complex patent issues. Has that background helped you in that in that regard? Scott Blackman  9:33   Yes, I think it has been, you know, any lawyer is trying to convince a judge or jury or patent examiner that their position is correct. And I think that that having the teaching background helps me find different ways to try to explain things or give up parallel situations to try to help them understand why they should agree with my position and the opposite. Chad Franzen  9:57   You’ve been offered for holes by our post negotiations by opposing parties. Can you? Can you talk about that a little bit? What what what does that scenario look like for you? And how do you handle it? Scott Blackman  10:10   Well, the first time I was actually, I worked in the Legal Aid Clinic at Cornell Law School, I was in law school. And we had one case for one of my clients. And it was a situation where the opponent was trying to quash the case. And we explained why they had been properly served. And this and that. Anyway, so we won that issue before the court and the case was moving forward. And afterwards, the other side, offered me a job. They liked I mean, we were pretty thorough, we called we call the sheriff’s officer who served the defendant, and had him testify that he knew who they were. And he knew that he served the right location, we called a postal postal employee to testify that it was the right address and, and we we submitted telephone book to show that they were listed at the address where they were served. I think just the thoroughness helped impress the other side as well. Chad Franzen  11:22 Do you ever have an a negotiation or a case where you start out thinking like, this is going to be quite a mountain to climb here? I’m really up against it. And then you have kind of overcome that challenge? Or do most cases for you start out closer to the middle like, like you said, you often like to start out. Scott Blackman  11:43  I tried to keep an open mind until I go through the background, go through the facts and see exactly where we are, what the situation is. Most people are reasonable. And most of the time, there’s some foundation for your client’s desires and for their position. So a lot of times it’s a matter of figuring out how best to put forth, honestly and validly their position and explain why. Why their position is the correct one. A lot of times one thing I’ve noticed throughout my career is a lot of lawyers don’t take the time to be as thoroughly prepared in making an argument. They don’t know the facts as well. And frankly, that’s half the that’s a lot of times half the battle. If you know the facts, if you know the situation, it makes it much easier to fully and thoroughly argue your clients position. Chad Franzen  12:35   Yeah, I would imagine. How did you how did you end up becoming a partner with your current firm Booth Udall Fuller? Scott Blackman  12:43 Yeah, Booth Udall Fuller. Fuller is is Rod Fuller. And I worked together at a previous law firm at Winston and Strawn. And he left. We’re on the I’m on the East Coast. I’m in the DC area. And Rod was first working out in New York and then came down to Washington. He left the East Coast for family reasons. So the main office for booth Udall, fuller is out in Arizona in Tempe, Arizona. We kept in touch through through the years. He’s kind of like a big little brother to me. And he called me once and asked about references for someone they were looking for someone with with my kind of background, and we got to talk with you about it. And you know, next thing I know, I was I was joining them rejoining rod. And we’re I’m kind of the the first part of the East Coast presence now for the firm. And so it’s been it’s been a great reunion. Chad Franzen  13:37 You said you have a pharmacy degree? Scott Blackman  13:40 I have a I went to pharmacy school, but I have a chemistry degree, a bachelor’s in chemistry, and a master’s in medicinal chemistry, which is basically pharmaceutical organic chemistry. Chad Franzen  13:50  So you have all kinds of education. What were your goals when you were kind of pursuing that that route? Scott Blackman  13:58   I wasn’t sure I thought maybe about going to medical school, I thought maybe about teaching. At one point I was accepted into a Ph. D. program for biophysical chemistry. And I wasn’t sure that I didn’t want to start something like that without at least intending initially, to finish it. So I decided to take the teaching job while I tried to figure out what I wanted to do in life. And that’s when I finally decided I really wanted to try to combine science with law and try to figure out how to a mine my educational focus with with with my extracurricular interests. Chad Franzen  14:34  How long did you end up teaching for? Scott Blackman  14:37   Just one year, okay, I was teaching it to Haverford school. That’s that’s the year I took my my law boards, law school exam. And I figured I’d applied my initial intent was to perhaps go to law school at night while I was teaching, but um, but then I got into Cornell Law School and it was it made sense to just go ahead and go full time. pretty rigorous. Chad Franzen  15:00   Did you do the way you have to think to be successful in terms of chemistry and things like that? Does that has that helped you in the in terms of the way you have to think, as an attorney or in the legal field? Scott Blackman  15:16   It’s helped tremendously. legal thinking legal logic and scientific logic are very similar. Um, I not flowery in my writing, I get to the point, it’s almost like a, like a recipe type of approach. But the thinking is very similar. I think that, that the science background helped me in law school, and it’s helped a lot ever since as well. Chad Franzen  15:42   Okay, a last I have one more question for you. But first, tell me how people can find out more about your, your firm. Scott Blackman  15:51   Well, our website is boothudall.com, boothudall.com. There’s a lot of background information there. We we try to help our clients in a way that, first off, helps protect them and tell them one of my pet issues is that a lot of new and growing companies don’t know enough to know what questions to ask early enough to protect themselves as thoroughly as possible. So we specialize basically, in helping new and growing companies know what their options are, know how to protect themselves. And we do it in a way that’s that’s completely transparent all the way through, they know what the cost is going to be. There are no surprises, we work with them within their budget and figure out from their perspective, what what they want out how to best protect them, their businesses, their products. Chad Franzen  16:42 Last question for you, as I mentioned, you know, you have a very interesting kind of career journey. educational background, what keeps you passionate and engaged in your work after you know, decades in the field? Scott Blackman  16:54 That was something I was worried about originally, because that wasn’t tracking do anything for 10 or 20 or more years and, and not get bored and want to find something else. That the the advantage here is that we’re always learning new types of technology as well as developments in the law. So for example, through the years I’ve worked on, I’ve worked on Polaroid film technology years ago, I’ve worked on fusion with years ago, when that first fizzled out. But we were one of the firms. The firm I was with at the time was one of the firms considered for some of that technology. I’ve worked with all kinds of biotechnology, pharmaceutical developments. So it’s been really nice, because I’m learning probably more on the science side than I am on the law side. But that keeps everything interesting. Chad Franzen  17:45  Yeah, I would imagine. Hey, Scott has been great to talk to you. Thanks so much for your time today. Really appreciate it. Scott Blackman  17:50 Same here. Thank you very much. Chad Franzen  17:51 So long, everybody. Outro  17:54 Thanks for listening to 15 Minutes. Be sure to subscribe and we’ll see you next time.