Why Winning Your Insurance Case Is More Than Just Law With Candise Shanbron

September 19, 2024 | Written by Gladiator Law Marketing

Candise Shanbron is a Managing Partner at Cernitz Law, a property damage and personal injury law firm in Florida. Candise is a dedicated property insurance lawyer who started her career representing insurance companies before passionately advocating for policyholders throughout Florida since 2008. Born in Taiwan and holding a JD from the University of Miami Law School, she brings a unique bicultural perspective to her practice. Her accolades include the 2022 Elite Lawyer and Lawyers of Distinction awards.

Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn:

[1:31] How a career setback in advertising led Candise Shanbron to pursue law and find her specialty
[3:40] Why property insurance law resonates with Candise’s strengths and analytical skills
[4:46] Moving from Taiwan to the US and Candise’s journey in establishing her own firm
[7:29] Challenges of building and growing a new law practice
[10:38] The key to being a successful property insurance attorney
[14:15] Common misconceptions policyholders have about insurance companies
[20:50] How Candise maintains her passion and motivation
[28:05] Candise’s advice for up-and-coming property insurance lawyers

In this episode…

Winning an insurance case might seem like a straightforward application of legal principles, but there’s more beneath the surface. What if the key to success wasn’t just about understanding the law but about how you navigate relationships, attention to detail, and the human factors involved in the process? What else could determine the outcome of your case outside the courtroom?

According to Candise Shanbron, a seasoned property insurance attorney with years of experience on both sides of the industry, winning an insurance case involves far more than just legal expertise. She highlights that understanding the nuances of relationships, especially with opposing counsel and insurance adjusters, can be critical to a case’s success. Candise emphasizes that while some attorneys may overlook key details or rush through the motions, true success often lies in painstakingly reviewing contracts and anticipating challenges before they arise. This holistic approach allows her to navigate complex issues and deliver results where others might falter.

In this episode of 15 Minutes, host Chad Franzen sits down with Candise Shanbron, Managing Partner at Cernitz Law, to discuss how winning an insurance case requires more than just legal knowledge. They talk about the importance of building relationships in the legal field, how attention to detail can make or break a case, and why having a sense of humor in the workplace is crucial for maintaining balance.

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Chad Franzen on LinkedIn
Gladiator Law Marketing
Candise Shanbron: LinkedIn | Facebook | Instagram | YouTube
Cernitz Law: Website | LinkedIn | Instagram | YouTube | Contact no.: 305-370-3255

Special Mentions

Elite Lawyer
Lawyers of Distinction
Justin Cernitz: LinkedIn | Instagram | YouTube
ReLAWtionship

Quotable Moments

“I always say the law picked me. I didn’t really pick the law.”
“The devil’s always in the details. I leave no stone unturned.”
“As long as I can continue to problem-solve and move the needle in law, that’s what fuels me.”
“Laughing and being silly is not mutually exclusive to being a serious professional.”
“Everything you’ve learned in law school, throw it out the door. Get real-life experiences.”

Action Steps

Pay close attention to details in all aspects of work and life: Focusing on the little things can prevent overlooking crucial elements that make a big difference.
Develop strong relationships in your professional field: Networking creates a supportive environment conducive to personal and career growth.
Maintain a sense of humor to balance the stresses of professional life: It helps create a positive workplace culture and contributes to overall well-being.
Never stop learning and adapting to new situations: Staying flexible and not confined by traditional wisdom fosters innovation.
Be willing to challenge assumptions and think critically about systemic issues: Questioning the status quo can lead to breakthroughs in any field.

Sponsor for this episode…

This episode is brought to you by Gladiator Law Marketing, where we deliver tailor-made services to help you accomplish your objectives and maximize your growth potential.

To have a successful marketing campaign and make sure you’re getting the best ROI, your firm needs to have a better website and better content. At Gladiator Law Marketing, we use artificial intelligence, machine learning, and decades of experience to outperform the competition.

To learn more, go to gladiatorlawmarketing.com or schedule a free marketing consultation. You can also send an email to ad**@gl*******************.com .

Episode Transcript

Intro 0:01

You’re listening to 15 Minutes where we feature community leaders sharing what the rest of us should know but likely don’t.

Chad Franzen 0:12

Hi. Chad Franzen here, one of the hosts of Share Your Voice, where we talk with top notch law firms and lawyers about what it takes to grow a successful law practice. This episode is brought to you by Gladiator Law Marketing, delivering tailor made services to help you accomplish your objectives and maximize your growth potential to have a successful marketing campaign and make sure you’re getting the best ROI your firm needs to have a better website and better content. Gladiator Law Marketing uses artificial intelligence, machine learning and decades of experience to outperform the competition to learn more. Go to gladiatorlawmarketing.com, where you can schedule a free marketing consultation. Candise Shanbron, Managing Partner at Cernitz Law was born and raised in Taiwan by a Taiwanese mother and an American father. She is proud of her Taiwanese heritage and how it shaped her. She graduated from the University of Miami law school and was admitted to the Florida State Bar in 2003. Her legal career has been devoted exclusively to the practice of Property Insurance Law. After initially representing insurance companies for five years, Candise has been passionately advocating on behalf of policy holders throughout the state of Florida. Since 2008 she is a recipient of the 2022 Elite Lawyer and Lawyers of Distinction awards. Hey, Candise, thanks so much for joining me today. How are you?

Candise Shanbron 1:23

Thanks for having me, Chad.

Chad Franzen 1:25

Hey, uh, tell me when, how and when did you know that you wanted to become an attorney?

Candise Shanbron 1:31

Um, when I failed in advertising, um, I always wanted to follow in the footsteps of my sister. Um, because growing up in Taiwan, culturally, it’s very different than, I guess, the way that children might be shaped in the United States, and especially with my family, my parents, having two different backgrounds, they didn’t really kind of shape any part of my life. So I kind of went through life in a nebulous kind of way, but in an organic way, which, as an adult, I’m now learning is is probably the best thing that they could have done for me. And so I didn’t really know what to do. And so what do you do? You if you have a sibling and you look up to your sibling? I wanted to just be like my sister. Then when I realized during my internship and you didn’t see in the world, I couldn’t hack it, and I knew that trying to do it in New York when I wasn’t really creative at all, I decided, okay, I went back home with my tail cut between my legs, going, Okay, what now? Then I got in touch with the first friend that I ever met when I moved to the United States at age 13, and I lost touch with her, and she was in law school in New York. So I said, Wow. I thought she was kind of a badass girl, and I looked up to her, so I was like, Okay, I have nothing better to do. So this is going to be my path. I’m going to go to law school. And when I came out of law school having wanted to do employment law. And, of course, as lawyers, a lot of us realize, you know, you can’t really pick and choose what you want to do. Or a lot of us don’t have that privilege of choosing what it is that we want to do. I fell onto first party property, which is, you know, Property Insurance Law. Loved it, and so I’ve been doing it ever since then. So because of the way things organically happened, I always say the law picked me. I didn’t really pick the law, so that’s how I got into it.

Chad Franzen 3:32

Okay, awesome, awesome. So what is it about property insurance law that you particularly find kind of attractive or enjoyable?

Candise Shanbron 3:40

It’s just something that I get, you know, it’s I always tell people, because I run a law firm now and I have a team member, you know, team members, I tell them, Listen, I don’t really choose team members based on anything other than, what are you really good at, or what is it that you love to do? And property insurance is something that I just got it clicked. It made sense to me. I see things in a different way than other lawyers do, and I love, you know, to analyze any kind of contracts, but particularly insurance contracts, it’s just, it’s just my thing. I can’t explain it, but it’s just it works for me, and I see things differently that most people do, and so that’s why I’m successful in it.

Chad Franzen 4:29

Can you tell us a little bit about, well, well, two things can you tell us about, kind of, your path to the US, kind of what I know you came here as a young as a young person, and then also your path to starting your own law firm, like, how you what happened after you got after, after you got out of law school?

Candise Shanbron 4:46

Well, since I come from a bi, you know, biracial, bicultural family, it made sense for my dad, who is American, to move us all to the United States when my my sister started. College in the United States. So that’s how I ended up in the US, starting my own firm. Was, you know, something that I can’t even really take credit for, is my husband that I give full credit to. I think that, you know, as you get older and you’re able to kind of analyze people and everything becomes this anthropological study of life and people and whatever I started on sensing the, you know, the pattern of guys seem to be better at risk taking, whereas women are, you know, everything the sun the moon and the stars and pluto need to align. And so it was very easy for my husband to kind of take his own path. After working for several firms, he always knew he wanted to be a personal injury attorney, because his father is a big insurance defense attorney in New York, and his father always said to him, You know what? Justin, don’t do what I’m doing. Go plaintiff. You know, go plaintiff. That’s That’s what if I had every wish and hope for you. That’s what I want you to do, and that’s what he ended up doing. So when he went off on his own, you know, things started, I guess, just as how any new firm, new endeavor is, it was complicated, difficult, but he’s, you know, he’s good what he does. And so he quickly started building his firm, in it, and it rapidly grew. And so he said to me, honey, I need you to quit your job. I need you to join me. And I said, Hell to the no, that’s not going to happen, because I’m pretty much supporting both of us, although, yes, you are growing, but I can’t do this. And you know, I pushed him off for a while, and finally he got to the point where he got so busy he’s you don’t have a choice. You do not have a choice. You I’m going to throw you in the deep end. And there’s never going to be a right time, just like there’s never a right time to have kids. You need to do this. And so I took the leap of faith, and I, you know, it was really difficult and challenging. The first couple of years, I wanted to kill him every day. He probably wanted to kill me every day. Um, but, you know, the growing pains were tough and but, you know, I can say I can be one of those, you know, lucky ones that can say that it was the best thing we ever did, best thing we ever did.

Chad Franzen 4:46

Awesome. So what were some of the, you know, what were some of the challenges that came along with starting a new firm and kind of building it from, from, from nothing.

Candise Shanbron 7:29

You know what I I’m gonna give you the answer. You know, hindsight is 2020, so I can’t honestly say that. It’s something that I knew at the time, but looking back, I know this to be true. You know I you know my my dad, rest in peace, love him to death, but he was the guy he was for the greatest generation. So he was old enough to be my grandfather. And when you’re raised by somebody of that generation, you know at least his path and his value system and his personality. You know, I was raised with, you know, it’s, it’s what you know, not who you know, right? So I didn’t get the practical education of, like, what life really is about and what fuels life and business. And so I was that person that just always grinded it and thought, if you know it’s about what I know, it’s how smart I am, it’s how good of a lawyer I am, and nothing else matters. Well, it was that was challenging, whereas my husband, luckily for us, in the balance of things, that was like, No, there’s so much more to just what you know and how good of a lawyer you are, but because I, I’m almost five years older than my husband, and because I’m a much better attorney than he is, in certain ways, he always deferred to me. And I’m, you know, I’m, I’m a high functioning professional, and I’m a doer, and I’m really good with, you know, logistics and a lot of things. And so because of all those things, he just deferred everything to me, and I discounted a lot of what my husband brought to the table, which, as I’m realizing now, is the most important. It’s the relationships, it’s the people skills, it’s your ability to reign make, which that’s not my strong suit. And so learning what our strengths and weaknesses are, unfortunately, were the growing pains. But once we learned what our strengths and weaknesses are, which we ended up realizing, you know, his strengths were my weaknesses, and vice versa, we were able to then really respect each other and respect our spaces, and then learn to divide and conquer and stay within our own lanes. And my not micromanaging every, you know, and micromanaging and, you know, I think a lot of people, and it doesn’t matter if I think, if you’re a couple, that we’re. Runs a business together, or just partners that run a business together. I think there’s that fallacy that everybody thinks that they just do it better, and so if you don’t learn what your strengths and weaknesses are, a lot of times, ego gets in the way, and it’s like, no, no, I know this. You know, I do this better, or I can, you know, do this better faster, or my ways better, and once you’re able to kind of figure out, you know, the lanes, that’s when things kind of simmer down.

Chad Franzen 10:31

So what makes you a particularly good property insurance attorney?

Candise Shanbron 10:38

It’s the attention to detail and realizing that the devil’s always in the detail. And I think that as and this really runs, I can’t even be hard on the legal profession. It’s in every industry, everybody. And you know, I’ve said this in my own podcast, other podcasts that I’ve been on, I say this ad nauseum, but it’s the truth. Nobody wants to really go there and spend the time anymore. Everybody wants easy. Everybody wants fast. Nobody wants to work for it anymore. Nobody wants to spend the time. And so I see this culture of everybody just wanting to check the box and go through the motions. And Gone are the days where you have the practitioners, the professionals out there that are the mad scientists that you know that it’s almost like I equated to you want that that difficult to get a hold of doctor that nobody really knows exists, because they’re the ones that are going to figure out the answer to the tough questions and solve the you know and cure the diseases that, like, every you know. So, like, that’s me. Like, I don’t care if it’s a low cost case, I don’t care if it’s a challenging case. I want that. Like, that’s where I get off on which drives my husband crazy sometimes, because he’s like, he’s the business guy, and he’s like, Honey, I you’ve now spent 300 hours, like, going crazy over this case that might not make us any money. And he’s like, and I love that your head is in it, and you get, you know, you love these challenges, but like, you also have to be practical. And I’m like, no, no, I’m gonna figure this out. It’s, it’s, it’s, what fuels me. It’s what it’s my purpose, it’s my it’s what drives me.

Chad Franzen 12:25

So when you have a complex, kind of a complex insurance policy or legal issue that you’re dealing with, kind of, what’s your approach? I can tell you, you spend a lot of time on it. Like, what do you do?

Candise Shanbron 12:39

Well, first, I leave no stone unturned, like I’m flipping things over, like you can’t imagine. You know, a lot of lawyers will assume that they know. Well, I’m not going to read this because I’ve seen a million of these, but that’s where you miss the really good nuggets and the details that might surprise you. And I also do, and I can’t take full credit for this. I’ve learned along the way, you know, as lawyers, as advocates, we oftentimes want to start by going, okay, how am I going to kick ass? How am I going to, you know, win this case? And I learned, you know, through the years, that a good attorney will start by saying, we’re asking, how am I going to lose this case? And when you take a holistic approach and figuring out how you’re going to lose something, you can then start figuring out how you’re going to win it after you start figuring out how you’re going to lose it. And so you know, by by kind of taking that holistic approach, coupled with kind of ransacking anything and everything and asking the right questions or questions that people would never think to ask, or looking at documents or thinking outside of the box, you’re never going to get anywhere. You’re just like every the 98% of the lawyers out there. So I’m proud to say that I’m in the 2%.

Chad Franzen 14:02

What would you say it is about property insurance law that either people are just ignorant to, or maybe the regular property owners are ignorant to, or maybe our misconceptions?

Candise Shanbron 14:15

I think that the number one misconception from the layman’s perspective is I’ve paid my insurance premiums religiously. I have never filed a claim, or I have filed very few claims. Why isn’t the insurance company doing right by me? And what most people don’t understand is that insurance is business like any other business, but somehow people, I don’t know if their perception is that insurance companies are somehow some kind of a quasi governmental or quasi charitable organization, that it’s like, no, we’re like family. I’ve been paying premiums religiously and on to. Time they owe it to me, and unfortunately, that’s not the case, because it’s still a business like every other business, and if insurance companies paid out every claim that they were supposed to, they they’re probably going to go out of business.

Chad Franzen 15:13

So how has that’s the number one I know you’ve been on both sides of the both sides represented insurance companies and policyholders. How has that experience benefited you?

Candise Shanbron 15:26

Amazing. Because you you know how they think. You realize that, you know. You realize moments in which the insurance company is just doing what it’s supposed to do, because it’s just a business decision. It’s not personal. Then you also know, the moments in which the insurance company is it is actually fueled by something very personal, because the insurance company is, you know, it’s the entity. But behind the entity are adjusters that are human, just like everybody else. So just like you know they you know they say you can get more bees with honey. Sometimes, you know a policyholder or an attorney representing a policyholder might rub the adjuster or might rub the defense counsel the wrong way. And so sometimes you can tell when something is completely personal. So by having both vantage points, I know when to take something personal, and I also know when to personally and to tell my client, this isn’t personal. This is, it is what it is. It is part of the beast. It is part of the game. And, you know, don’t get so revved up and offended by this. And other times I’m like, Ah, I know exactly what you’re doing. I know why you’re doing this. It is not part of the insurance company’s practices. This is personal, you know, so you kind of can tell and could compartmentalize certain things and then know how to deal with it or counteract to it.

Chad Franzen 16:58

As you mentioned, you’re married to your legal partner, your professional partner. How do you kind of balance your professional and personal lives?

Candise Shanbron 17:08

Laughter, sense of humor and laughter. When I started out in in my career, I had a very, very different professional personality to my personal personality. And as you get older, and you go through life and you get older, and you just like, I just don’t give a shit anymore. This is who I am, the both start merging, and you realize what’s really important. And you realize you don’t have to peacock and you don’t have to front and posture and do all these different things that you could just be yourself if you’re a good attorney, being a good attorney and your craft will carry you, rather than all the surface stuff. And so when you have that in mind, and you realize at a very early stage, as my husband and I are very blessed to realize what matters in life, you just start living, and you start really living. You work hard, you play hard. You know, we don’t take a lot of things personally, because we have a great sense of humor. We laugh. It’s our part of our firm culture. So everyone that works at our firm, they love it, and they love being there, because we laugh all day, and they’re and laughing and being silly is not mutually exclusive to being a shitty practitioner or not a serious professional like you. There’s a space for both to exist. And I think a lot of people don’t get that, but they’ll get it. They, you know, some people reach it at age 60 or 65 or 55 and I said to my husband, I don’t want to be the, you know, one of those people that doesn’t get it, and the light bulb doesn’t start flashing until it’s too late. Nah, not doing that.

Chad Franzen 18:55

As you look back on your career so far, is there like, a moment, or, you know, a kind of a period of time that you’re particularly proud of, maybe a case or something like that.

Candise Shanbron 19:07

Yeah. So when I first it was in 2012 I it was probably one of the most complicated issues that I discovered, and I was the first one to discover it, because I know, if you check the dockets, you’ll know, and it was the case that put me on the map with this one insurance company that I’ve heard from various different insurance company employees that my picture is on a wall and people throw darts at it, which is a compliment to me, Like I love that. I get off on that. And, you know, it was, it was a very, very complicated issue. It was for a client of mine that, you know, they didn’t have much, and the husband and wife both worked, you know, double shifts. And I remembered they both came off of a double shift. And. Made their way to a mediation, probably half asleep, because they just, you know, both barely could make ends meet. And you know, we settled the case, and they it was more money than they probably would ever see in two lifetimes. And they were so thankful, and they were teary eyed and cried. And you know, you’ll never, I’ll, I’ll never be able to wipe that image from my mind. And it was my proudest moment, because it wasn’t a huge case, um, it wasn’t like I got millions of dollars from my clients, but it was a lot, and it was a lot for them, um, and so that was my proudest moment.

Chad Franzen 20:39

Great. That sounds that’s awesome. Hey, how do you I can tell you’re very passionate. Maybe that’s just, maybe that’s just, how do you stay motivated and passionate about your work?

Candise Shanbron 20:50

Um, because I just love it. You know, there isn’t anything. I think it’s the ability to problem solve is what fuels me. So anytime, even in my personal life, I’m like a fixer, I’m a problem solver. So I that’s at the very foundation of what gives me my purpose. And so as long as I can continue to move the needle and solve problems in law, which is becoming increasingly difficult because the courts have become very political. And so I find that you know, as an attorney, you know that nothing is ever black and white, right? But even knowing that nothing is ever black and white, you still know as a good attorney whether you should win certain issues or not. Like certain issues, you know it’s not black and white. You’re like, it could go either way, but there are certain issues where you’re like, No, it is black and white case law that that is, that is a legal precedent that the courts need to follow, and when the courts don’t, because you know that there’s other things going on behind the scenes, and it’s very political, that’s where I start going. Okay, you know is, is, is the passion of being able to problem solve and move the needle exist anymore in this space, because I know how the courts are, so that it is challenging staying passionate, but it’s just who I am to begin with. I don’t think you can teach anybody passion you either have it or not based on whether you love what you do and you know you’re good at it. So I don’t really know how to answer that, because clearly I still have it, because you could sense it, and I can’t turn it on and I can’t turn it off. It’s just the frequency in which I operate.

Chad Franzen 22:53

So would you say courts are political? Do you mean like political? Like at a workplace where everything is political, or do you mean like, it reflects our country, the the divides in our country currently.

Candise Shanbron 23:04

I think it’s, it’s, I think it’s everything. I think it’s the way our country is. I think it’s, I think now, um, you know my dad, I’m gonna say, I’m gonna I’m treading carefully, because I can go down a rabbit hole very quickly. But, you know, my dad used to say, Honey, you know, you’re, while you’re going into a very noble profession, not everyone who’s in it is, and I find that, you know, personal interest in every industry is, you know, you know, we just, there’s very little. The fiber of honor and integrity is just kind of being completely whittled down and washed out in in the world, in our country. And I think that when you have a situation where everybody’s like, Well, shit, you know, you know what’s in it for me, and I’m just gonna get ahead in life, because this is what I see everybody else doing. And why should I be this earnest person that, you know, fights what’s right and justice and all this kind of stuff, and there’s a deterioration and the fiber of our country’s integrity and honor, that’s, it’s, it’s no, you know, lawyer, I mean, lawyers, judges, any type of practitioner, that we’re all human. And so I see that nobody’s willing to stand alone and do what’s right and wrong. That’s no longer a part of the value system. Everybody’s like, Okay, well, what do I need to do to keep my job? What do I need to do to advance my career? What do I need to do to, you know, go along to get along. It’s if those things that drive me freaking crazy, but that’s the reality of the world that we live in. And the courts are not any different than anybody else, because the people behind you know the court system are just human, like everybody.

Chad Franzen 24:56

Gotcha. Yeah. Hey, I know you have a podcast. I bet it’s very. Very interesting and informative, maybe even entertaining. Can you tell me a little bit about it?

Candise Shanbron 25:05

So it’s called ReLAWtionship. I’m taking a slight break from it because I’m kind of at that stage where I’m pulled into 5 million different directions, and I don’t want to do things again just to check the box and go through the motions. I do things with intention. And so when I have certain processes that I’m trying to kind of get down and take care of my firm, and then I can really go back to the podcast and, you know, give it my all, then I will. But ReLAWtionship is about for me. You know, as I said earlier, I’m that person that I always want to get to that right mindset in life earlier than everybody else. Like, you know, I don’t want to learn the the big lessons in life late and so, you know, in my own personal journey, professional and personal journey, you know, I’ve read so many different types of books, self help books, whatever, and just kind of seeking perspective. I everything that I read and everything that I hear, everybody’s just trying to kind of be polite and, you know, say what they think sounds right. And I was like, that’s not practical. That’s not you know, that’s not what’s you know, gonna, I’m gonna latch to. So, I said to my husband, I said, I want to interview other people and kind of figure out what are the really important lessons in life, both professionally and personally, that they’ve gotten, um, whether it’s, you know, running a business or their personal relationships and, you know, and just kind of get those nuggets and bring them to the world. And when I talk to people in my in my podcast, I’m like, I don’t care. Swear, I want you to be as much you as possible. I don’t want you to be reserved. I don’t want you to hold back. I really want you to give me the genuine lessons that you’ve learned, the takeaways and so that’s really what you know ReLAWtionship is about.

Chad Franzen 27:05

Okay, sounds great. Hey, I have one more question for you, but first, if you could just tell me how people can find out more about Cernitz Law.

Candise Shanbron 27:13

well, you can go onto our website at www.cernitzlaw.com.com, and we, between my husband and I, we have different social media handles. Mine is at Candise Shanbron, and my husband’s, I think, is that Justin Cernitz And I think Cernitz Law has its own social media pages. Um, yeah, that’s how you can find us.

Chad Franzen 27:37

Okay, uh, one last question.

Candise Shanbron 27:39

You can call us at our main office numbers, 305-370-3255.

Chad Franzen 27:46

Okay, perfect. All right, if, uh, if somebody you knew who was, you know, younger than you, or whatever, came to you and said, I’m I want a property, uh, insurance lawyer. What could you tell them that they wouldn’t learn in law school, that they could only learn from having walked in your shoes.

Candise Shanbron 28:05

Everything that you’ve learned in law school, throw it out the door. Throw it out the door. Get the real life experiences. Relationships really matter. So don’t come out of law school flexing your muscles and you know, because there’s a lot for you to learn, don’t ever drink one Kool Aid. Really learn different perspectives. Sometimes it’s not about the law at all. You know, things are not black and white. Be as flexible as you can, which is the reason why relationships are important, especially with your opposing counsels, because sometimes you think you’re right and you’re dead balls wrong, or you’ll lose a case that you should have won and you know, and it goes the other way. So yeah.

Chad Franzen 28:53

Okay, great. Hey, Candise has been fantastic to talk to you today. I really appreciate your time and all of your insights and your perspective. Thank you so much.

Candise Shanbron 29:01

Thanks, Chad.

Chad Franzen 29:03

So long everybody.

Outro 29:06

Thanks for listening to 15 Minutes. Be sure to subscribe and we’ll see you next time.